Modifying developers for developing old film

silvergrahm · Jan 3, 2013

Hello,

I have a couple of old rolls of family film (10-40 yrs old) some color, some black and white. Today I was trying to develop a roll of kodacolor X in rodinal 1:50. I'm just trying to reduce some silver and not bothering with the dyes. I could see very very faint frame lines after fixing. So I believe something is there, on this particular film, but is fogged horifically. Could someone suggest time, temperature, or. chemical modifications I can use to develop this particular film, and perhaps the others, too. I have rodinal, D-76, sodium sulfite, lye, and benzotriazole at my disposal.

Thank you

Mark Crabtree · Jan 3, 2013

HC110.

10 years old is no big deal, probably just a bit more time. For the old ones, do a Google search for developing outdated film with HC110. You should find some very helpful tips. I had surprisingly good luck doing this with some exposed film more like 60 years old.

I'll try to find some info later if you can't turn it up.

silvergrahm · Jan 3, 2013

Thank you, Mark. I did a search and looks like HC-110 is indeed great for low fog. Unfortunately I don't think I can spring for another dev right now. So, let me restate the question.

I want to develop a very old reel of Kodacolor X thats badly fogged (did clip test). Does anyone know of any modifications that can be made with either D76 or rodinal, using sulfite, benzotriazole, dilution time or temperture that can help remedy severe fog?

Thank you

agfarapid · Jan 3, 2013

Can't really respond to developing old Kodacolor X . If you find out, spread the news, I have about 15 rolls of C-41 films to process. I can speak highly of HC-110 and 20 year old TMX (TMax 100). Processed normally at 7 min dil B at 68 degrees the results were excellent, showing no fog and just a big more grain. I have tried Rodinal on old films with pretty poor results. Good luck in your search.

silvergrahm · Jan 3, 2013

agfarapid said:
Can't really respond to developing old Kodacolor X . If you find out, spread the news, I have about 15 rolls of C-41 films to process.

Kodacolor X is C-22, so I wouldn't try to process it c-41. Don't know what c-22 involves myself, don't care to learn as it probably is more trouble than it's worth.

Mark Crabtree · Jan 4, 2013

silvergrahm said:
Thank you, Mark. I did a search and looks like HC-110 is indeed great for low fog. Unfortunately I don't think I can spring for another dev right now. So, let me restate the question.

I want to develop a very old reel of Kodacolor X thats badly fogged (did clip test). Does anyone know of any modifications that can be made with either D76 or rodinal, using sulfite, benzotriazole, dilution time or temperture that can help remedy severe fog?

Thank you

Someone else may have some suggestions, so I'll butt out after this, but a bottle of HC110 is pretty cheap. Someone can probably give you an old bottle that is laying around; I would if you were near here. An old bottle of dark brown HC110 will probably still work fine, and since you have to find your times anyway a slight loss of activity wouldn't make any difference.

Maybe you just enjoy experimenting, but I don't see trying to re-invent the wheel.

StoneNYC · Jan 4, 2013

I've been doing a lot of this, just developed some Verichrome that expired in 1947 with good results.

B&W is much easier than color films though.

You need to use a FAST developer to reduce fog from my limited trial runs, so find a developer that has fast times like Ilfsol 3 which does most films for 5 minutes. Long developers seem to introduce fog.

I've been collecting info on older color films and I'm putting together the original developers from scratch. I think that's much better ultimately. It's just an arduous process.

Examples of "success"

If you find the full C-22 process chemistry WITH actual measurements, please pass it along.

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

StoneNYC · Jan 4, 2013

Oh and I often use the 10 years = 1 stop rule. So Example...

32ASA film that expired in 1983 would be shot at EI8.

If the film can be verified frozen all that time I would half the number and do EI16.

Hope that helps. The above images were shot at EI3 but on paper should have been EI0.75! But my meter only went to 3ASA and I figured there's a sort of reciprocity factor that at some point a film won't lose speed as quickly as it ages.

I also think I might have shortened the developing time by a minute to get more contrast and less fog but maybe not.

I have 3 more of those reels so we shall see what the next one gives.

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

johnielvis · Jan 4, 2013

this may be of help...something that just recently came to light is that the extra restrainers in paper developer will likely develop way less fog and still give the high energy punch....see examples towards the end....paper developer didn't develop fog like film developer

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Роберт · Jan 4, 2013

For B&W I can also recommend HC-110 for old films. It gives a significant lower base fog. Comparing the same film (HP5+, 135-36) 12 y.o. in Xtol 1+0 and HC-110 dil. B, shot on E.I. 320:
Base fog Xtol: 0,40 logD
Base fog HC-110: 0,28 logD.
New film 0,2 logD although last time for PAN F+ the regular base fog is 0,25 logD which is IMO pretty high.

Clear Polyester films from Rollei, Efke and Foma (120, new versions) are much lower: 0,05 logD or even less. But here you have to watch out for the "light piping" effect, especially in 35mm.

johnielvis · Jan 4, 2013

see the link in post #9....experiments side by side have shown that paper developer will produce no fog where hc-110 will produce fog....hc-110 is very good for low fog--but it appears the paper developers may be better--significantly better.

StoneNYC · Jan 4, 2013

I've posted on there but will repeat, it seems they believe its the restrainer in the paper developer, so why not simply identify the restrainer compound, and add that to the already proficient HC-110 film developer? That way you won't have to deal with the need to be more aggressive because of the paper developers other non-for-film characteristics?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

werra · Jan 4, 2013

silvergrahm said:
Kodacolor X is C-22, so I wouldn't try to process it c-41. Don't know what c-22 involves myself, don't care to learn as it probably is more trouble than it's worth.

Room-temperature C41 might result in absolutely usable image from C22 film.
1962 expired 4x5 Kodak Ektacolor type S in C41, shot and processed in 2012:

StoneNYC · Jan 4, 2013

werra said:
Room-temperature C41 might result in absolutely usable image from C22 film.
1962 expired 4x5 Kodak Ektacolor type S in C41, shot and processed in 2012:

That's really beautiful, temp and time? 20°C and what was the dev time?

Another poster did CN17 (or NK17? Ya know agfa color neg...) in C-41 at 20° and for 20 minutes, but yours seems to be a better color cast and exposure, so wondering about your version. Thanks!

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

werra · Jan 4, 2013

StoneNYC said:
That's really beautiful, temp and time? 20°C and what was the dev time?

Another poster did CN17 (or NK17? Ya know agfa color neg...) in C-41 at 20° and for 20 minutes, but yours seems to be a better color cast and exposure, so wondering about your version. Thanks!

Yes, I have many alter egos around here posting under my name.

Ektacolor was developed for 20 minutes as well. Better color cast and exposure are just due the sheet being taken from factory-sealed package without much oxygen to ruin the film.
Those Agfacolors, which are btw _not_ C22 films, are just plain 120 rolls and 135 cassettes exposed to much more oxygen and moisture.

silvergrahm · Jan 4, 2013

werra said:
Room-temperature C41 might result in absolutely usable image from C22 film.
1962 expired 4x5 Kodak Ektacolor type S in C41, shot and processed in 2012:

Very interesting. Ektacolor S is c-22? And was this film in cold storage? I'm using film that has already been exposed and has certainly not been stored properly.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't see your last post. That awesome you had sealed film. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere on APUG that dyes in color film no longer work after a while, but I could be mistaken.

Modifying developers for developing old film

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