Modern Flashes

ericB&W · Oct 26, 2023

Today arrived a Godox TT600, a simple manual flash that i ordered on Amazon , i wanted some more power to bounce the light on the ceiling,
till now i used a Metz 45 CT-1 , guide number 45 and i got the Godox because has g.n. 60, so i tought was perfect to have a stop more .
I've made a fast test using a Canon 5D mark II just to see immediately the result, i always fire the Metz 45 with a sincro cell as it damage the modern electronic cameras internal circuits , don't plug it in into the camera and use a small flash , a Vitrox set at 1/180 of power output , pointed to the ceiling too, just to make fire the Metz.The light that gives the Vitrox is negligible as the photo comes out almost completely dark at 1/180 pointed tho the ceiling .
I watched at the results and , by my eye , the photo made with the Metz seems at least 1 stop brighter than the one made with the Godox.
I ask how is possible that a modern flash with guide number 60 gives less light than a Metz 45.
Before i had the idea of buying a metz 60 with one of that modern battery that is possible to find on ebay but i gave up when i saw this Godox flash at 70 eu
but now i think again i need The Metz 60 .

xkaes · Oct 26, 2023

Guide Numbers are tricky because they depend on TWO variables. The first if the FILM SPEED. The second is the distance FEET or METERS.

A GN of 100 is meaningless without these details. I suspect this is the discrepancy.

JParker · Oct 26, 2023

ericB&W said:
I watched at the results and , by my eye , the photo made with the Metz seems at least 1 stop brighter than the one made with the Godox.
I ask how is possible that a modern flash with guide number 60 gives less light than a Metz 45.

That was to be expected, as the Metz probably has more power than the Godox.
Up to about 20 years ago all flash producers gave their GN numbers for
- ISO 100
and
- a reflector position of 50mm.
That is also what the GN of 45 of your Metz is based on.

Later that changed, and some manufacturers started to give the guide number for the max. tele position of the integrated reflector, which of course increases the GN.
It was partly a kind of cheating by some, as at the same time they reduced the real power of the flashes. But the normal consumer did not realized that, because of the increased number based now on the max. tele position, and not on the 50mm reflector position anymore.

ericB&W · Oct 26, 2023

JParker said:
That was to be expected, as the Metz probably has more power than the Godox.
Up to about 20 years ago all flash producers gave their GN numbers for
- ISO 100
and
- a reflector position of 50mm.
That is also what the GN of 45 of your Metz is based on.

Later that changed, and some manufacturers started to give the guide number for the max. tele position of the integrated reflector, which of course increases the GN.
It was partly a kind of cheating by some, as at the same time they reduced the real power of the flashes. But the normal consumer did not realized that, because of the increased number based now on the max. tele position, and not on the 50mm reflector position anymore.

I set the Godox at 105 zoom as i made the test with a 105mm lens so the output was
calibrated with the lens, then i made another photo at 200 mm zoom as , in the technical data , at the
end of the instruction booklet there is written guide number 60 at 1/1 power at 200 mm .
I tested on a tripod at the same distance , set the Canon at 400 iso and tried different head angulation to see if the difference of brighteness in favour of the Metz was due , in some way, to the bouncing angle, nothing to do, in any circumstances the Metz resulted the winner.
Now i'll try other lenses combination but i think the result will be the same.

Sirius Glass · Oct 26, 2023

xkaes said:
Guide Numbers are tricky because they depend on TWO variables. The first if the FILM SPEED. The second is the distance FEET or METERS.

A GN of 100 is meaningless without these details. I suspect this is the discrepancy.

The distance for bounce flash is the total distance of the two legs of the bounce path, not the distance from the camera to the subject.

BrianShaw · Oct 26, 2023

@ericB&W … one of the best (additional) “investments” that you can make would be a flash meter.

Chan Tran · Oct 26, 2023

JParker said:
That was to be expected, as the Metz probably has more power than the Godox.
Up to about 20 years ago all flash producers gave their GN numbers for
- ISO 100
and
- a reflector position of 50mm.
That is also what the GN of 45 of your Metz is based on.

Later that changed, and some manufacturers started to give the guide number for the max. tele position of the integrated reflector, which of course increases the GN.
It was partly a kind of cheating by some, as at the same time they reduced the real power of the flashes. But the normal consumer did not realized that, because of the increased number based now on the max. tele position, and not on the 50mm reflector position anymore.

The Metz 45 GN of 45 in meter is rated for the 35mm coverage (not 50mm). Unless you have the tele adapter the Metz 45 only has 1 position for the reflector. Most of the newer flashes have zoom head and the GN is often rated for the reflector at maximum zoom. The Godox probably has a GN of about 33-36 in meters with the reflector at 35mm. So it's about 2/3 of a stop less light than the Metz.

Chan Tran · Oct 26, 2023

Another thing about modern flash is that they don't have the sensor for automatic exposure control. So if it's not TTL compatible with your camera you only have manual. Manual flash is good for a setup which you cn use a flashmeter or take test shots with a digital but if you do an event cover it would be a pain as you don't have time to do either of those.

ericB&W · Oct 26, 2023

BrianShaw said:
@ericB&W … one of the best (additional) “investments” that you can make would be a flash meter.

I have two, a "professional" Gossen multisix and an "unprofessional" Sheperd ,
I'll make the test tomorrow.

wiltw · Oct 26, 2023

Modern flashes are OPTIMISTIC in their Guide Number because it assumes the LONGEST FL narrower illuminated AOV of the flashhead.

Using the Canon 600RT as specific example, the flashhead for 200mm FL is what provides the GN = 60(meter) rating, compared to the Metz 45. However the Metz AOV is fixed at about 30-32mm FL for the GN45 rating...if we set the Canon to about same FL, we see about GN32... at distance of 10m, that yields f/4.5 for the Metz vs. f/3.2 for the Canon!

ericB&W · Oct 26, 2023

Chan Tran said:
The Metz 45 GN of 45 in meter is rated for the 35mm coverage (not 50mm). Unless you have the tele adapter the Metz 45 only has 1 position for the reflector. Most of the newer flashes have zoom head and the GN is often rated for the reflector at maximum zoom. The Godox probably has a GN of about 33-36 in meters with the reflector at 35mm. So it's about 2/3 of a stop less light than the Metz.

Yes, i think should be around 36 , a while ago i compared it with the Canon 540 EZ ,
both with the zoom at 50 mm and the Canon is little brighter , the Canon 540 EZ booklet says that at 50mm G.N. is 42 so the Godox is little less than 42 .

BrianShaw · Oct 26, 2023

ericB&W said:
I have two, a "professional" Gossen multisix and an "unprofessional" Sheperd ,
I'll make the test tomorrow.

Great! Often putting a flash in M and using a flash meter is both easier and more effective. If nothing else, you can set up the flash meter to actually measure the GN in your specific conditions. What they put in the specs and sales materials isn’t always valid under other circumstances.

JParker · Oct 27, 2023

Chan Tran said:
The Metz 45 GN of 45 in meter is rated for the 35mm coverage (not 50mm).

You are right (checked with my older Metz brochures).
I've changed it with my other Metz flashes of the MZ series, and other flashes of that time, which all had the GN for 50mm normal lens and ISO 100/21°.

JParker · Oct 27, 2023

Chan Tran said:
Another thing about modern flash is that they don't have the sensor for automatic exposure control. So if it's not TTL compatible with your camera you only have manual.

Are you referring to the current cheap Chinese flashes from Yongnuo, Godox etc.?
Because for example at least my Metz MZ 54 and Nikon SB-800 have the sensor and can also be used with older cameras.

Chan Tran · Oct 27, 2023

JParker said:
Are you referring to the current cheap Chinese flashes from Yongnuo, Godox etc.?
Because for example at least my Metz MZ 54 and Nikon SB-800 have the sensor and can also be used with older cameras.

Neither of the flashes are in production. Count the number of flashes you can buy new today with the built in sensor. You find that there are very few of them. Metz no longer in business. Only Nikon top of the line SB-5000 has that mode.

JParker · Oct 27, 2023

Chan Tran said:
Neither of the flashes are in production. Count the number of flashes you can buy new today with the built in sensor. You find that there are very few of them. Metz no longer in business. Only Nikon top of the line SB-5000 has that mode.

I know they are out of production.
But so what?
Probably about 90% of equipment products we film shooters use are currently out of production. But the used market is full of excellent modern flashes which give us film shooters all we want, like the two models I mentioned. Flash photography on the highest possible level, including HSS, i-TTL, off-camera flash with slave-function, group flash, fill-in flash and so on.

Chan Tran · Oct 27, 2023

JParker said:
I know they are out of production.
But so what?
Probably about 90% of equipment products we film shooters use are currently out of production. But the used market is full of excellent modern flashes which give us film shooters all we want, like the two models I mentioned. Flash photography on the highest possible level, including HSS, i-TTL, off-camera flash with slave-function, group flash, fill-in flash and so on.

That why I said "modern flashes" the flashes that we can buy new today don't work as well for our old cameras as the old ones in the past. If you have say something like a Pentax MX or Nikon FM which new flash that you can buy that would be more useful than the old flashes or yester years like even the lowly Vivitar 283? I am talking about the trend of flashes that are being made today.

Sirius Glass · Oct 27, 2023

Chan Tran said:
That why I said "modern flashes" the flashes that we can buy new today don't work as well for our old cameras as the old ones in the past. If you have say something like a Pentax MX or Nikon FM which new flash that you can buy that would be more useful than the old flashes or yester years like even the lowly Vivitar 283? I am talking about the trend of flashes that are being made today.

Modern flashes provide zoom features to widen or narrow the flash pattern, TTL, tilt and swivel to provide bounce flash that works with TTL.

Chan Tran · Oct 27, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Modern flashes provide zoom features to widen or narrow the flash pattern, TTL, tilt and swivel to provide bounce flash that works with TTL.

but if you have a camera without TTL you're out of luck (of course the TTL of your camera and the flash doesn't match you're out of luck too). In my example I cited 2 cameras I think which are quite popular and neither can do TTL. Even if your camera has TTL and it's of the same brand as the flash it may not work either. For example you can't use a SB-5000 with TTL on a Nikon F5.

Sirius Glass · Oct 27, 2023

If I remember correctly cameras without TTL can use a TTL strobe and the strobe will cut off the light when it bounces back to the sensor. That made much older cameras able to take advantage of the advanced features of the Vivitar flashes in the 70's or 80's even thought the cameras were much older.

MattKing · Oct 27, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
If I remember correctly cameras without TTL can use a TTL strobe and the strobe will cut off the light when it bounces back to the sensor. That made much older cameras able to take advantage of the advanced features of the Vivitar flashes in the 70's or 80's even thought the cameras were much older.

Flashes that offer TTl ("Through The Lens") reliant auto-exposure as the only form of auto-exposure are totally reliant on there being attached a camera that works with that system. Otherwise, they become manual flashes.
I've always preferred the flashes that supply their own automation. They are often referred to as thyristor flashes, but technically that refers not to their automation, but rather how their automation system minimizes battery drain.
Some of the more advanced auto-exposure flashes offered the ability to move their sensor off the flash - for example to a camera hot shoe - which added a lot of usability for those using bounce flash or light modifiers.

BrianShaw · Oct 27, 2023

I had no idea that flash modes were this confusing until now…

JParker · Oct 28, 2023

BrianShaw said:
I had no idea that flash modes were this confusing until now…

Honestly it is not so complicated. You just have to look at 2-3 main factors.
Most problems occur if you either have a very old camera, or a very old flash, or one of the current cheap Chinese flashes.

But in the time span of about 2002 to 2008 we have a kind of "sweet spot" in flash technology for film shooters:
Flashes of that era from Metz and the main camera brands are generally full compatible downwards to older film cameras, and full compatible to the most modern film cameras and current DSLRs.
They are extremely versatile.
And they have all the wonderful and useful features I have mentioned above.
As Nikon was mentioned, the SB-800 fits perfectly for both old and most modern cameras. Same is valid for the Metz 54 MZ-4, which can be adapted perfectly even to different camera brands with an SCA adapter.
And both are very powerful, with a GN of about 40 at 50mm and ISO 100/21°.

And as film cameras with excellent, modern flash technology are often extremely cheap (less than 100 bucks), and these flashes are also very reasonably priced on the used market, really everyone including students can enter modern flash technology (and it is really worth it!).
No need at all to use an old film camera (without TTL metering for example) for flash photography and risking not optimal or even bad results.

ericB&W · Oct 28, 2023

As i suspected , Metz has one stop more of power than Godox , measured with Gossen multisix .

Chan Tran · Oct 28, 2023

MattKing said:
Flashes that offer TTl ("Through The Lens") reliant auto-exposure as the only form of auto-exposure are totally reliant on there being attached a camera that works with that system. Otherwise, they become manual flashes.
I've always preferred the flashes that supply their own automation. They are often referred to as thyristor flashes, but technically that refers not to their automation, but rather how their automation system minimizes battery drain.
Some of the more advanced auto-exposure flashes offered the ability to move their sensor off the flash - for example to a camera hot shoe - which added a lot of usability for those using bounce flash or light modifiers.

this is the feature few modern flashes (flashes that are currently can be bought new) offer. They generally offer TTL and manual. They do offer more manual power controls than old flashes (70's, 80's ) which would be good for a setup and used with a flashmeter but not so good for quickie shots.

Modern Flashes

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