Modern 645 Camera Search

xya said:

You are evidently totally wrong. I know quite a lot about Hasselblads. Theses are backs, not cameras. The OP was looking for a 645 camera. A Hasselblad is a 6x6 camera, you should know this and we all know about your obsession...more than we want...

and...digital backs don't count here...

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The first Hasselblad H cameras (H1 and H2) were 6x4.5 cameras that used a 6x4.5 back.
After a few intermediate H models that were only digital, the later Hasselblad H cameras are compatible with both 6x4.5 film backs and digital backs.

...one thing about this forum; you think you know but someone will soon tell you what you actually know...

I see. Thanks for the info. So I learned a bit more. I have only come across H cameras with digital backs and soon lost interest in this series. And seen the prices...

Wowza! I just learned that even the relatively recent Hasselblad H5D-40 can be used with a film back!

xya said:

You are evidently totally wrong. I know quite a lot about Hasselblads. Theses are backs, not cameras. The OP was looking for a 645 camera. A Hasselblad is a 6x6 camera, you should know this and we all know about your obsession...more than we want...

and...digital backs don't count here...

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When a digital or 645 film back are placed on a Hasselblad, the Hasselblad is being used as the 645 camera, regardless of your opinion.

xya said:

I see. Thanks for the info. So I learned a bit more. I have only come across H cameras with digital backs and soon lost interest in this series. And seen the prices...

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I too lost interest in the H cameras and the digital backs years ago when it became obvious that the there was not going to be 6x6 digital backs and I started learning about the parts and servicing problems with the H cameras. So we are on the same page there.

Bronica RF645. Probably the last 6x4.5 cameras made.

There is also the Mamiya 645 AF and AFD series; even the AFDIII will use film, and Mamiya made a new film-back for that model. I think the cameras became digital-only when made as Phase One products.


(Sadly the links to manuals in that page are now dead)

Dustin McAmera said:

There is also the Mamiya 645 AF and AFD series; even the AFDIII will use film, and Mamiya made a new film-back for that model. I think the cameras became digital-only when made as Phase One products.

Mamiya 645 AF and 645 AFD series - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

(Sadly the links to manuals in that page are now dead)

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Lots of manuals available here ; https://butkus.org/chinon/mamiya.htm
A small donation will help him keep the website available and add to its extensive resources.

I have used both Mamiya and Pentax 645 for years as a working professional. Years ago I bought a Pentax 645 N when it was first introduced. I had sold the Mamiya equipment, as I wanted to try the AF on the Pentax. I still own it, use it, and enjoy its capabilities. My lenses run from the wide-angle to the 300 tele. You can pre-load an extra film back which will then give a total of 30-32 frames.

The only Mamiya cameras I've got experience with are their TLRs and 16mm subminiatures, which are hardly modern. I picked up a 645N some time ago as an addition to my 67 MLU & glass and have really enjoyed it. It has modern bells and whistles: AF, PSAM, TTL metering modes, motorized advance, edge data imprinting, and a total reliance on electricity. It lacks a mirror lock-up which I believe was added in the 645Nii, but I don't really miss it.

So taken, I recently acquired a 645Z but that model may be altogether too modern for this discussion!

Hasselblad V-System camera with 645 back, grid screen that shows 645 frame, and a metered prism.

Picking up this discussion 'cause I think along these lines that my Rollieflex 3.5F - nice and reliable as it is, doesn't: 1) Have either WA or Portrait lenses (duh); 2) the other full 6X6 cameras I'd tried literally didn't "click" ; and 3) Maybe a smaller framed 645 would be the magic sweet spot. Frankly, this comes after staring down the temptation to go with a TREX of the MF world in an RB/RZ67, or even the Texas Leica (Fuji G690 BL series).... but resisting.

Approaching this, I fully cognizant that sixty-plus eyes are still very good, and I'm still nailing focus with the TLR, but AF isn't essential. But I'd listen to those of you who might counsel otherwise... and that would favor a Pentax 645N and their AF... possibly. Counter to that is from the outside, it sounds as if manual focus with a Mamiya M645 Super type is easier with a brighter viewfinder than the Pentax... which may therefore really NEED the AF. Thoughts?

All said, I'm in no rush with this and will likely go down the road with a rental from FilmObjectiv before having another expensive miscue... 'cause who knows? Maybe an occassional rental cures the GAS better than an actual purchase? Hmmm hold that thought.

Additional to this I am curious about not so modern options (folders) which might yet be competitive in image quality and features. I have been eyeing some folders which either are 645 (some ikontas) or dual format (Mamiya Six). The idea of a tessar type lens which should be rather decent, coupled rangefinder and "automatic" film advance mechanism.

JWMster said:

Picking up this discussion 'cause I think along these lines that my Rollieflex 3.5F - nice and reliable as it is, doesn't: 1) Have either WA or Portrait lenses (duh); 2) the other full 6X6 cameras I'd tried literally didn't "click" ; and 3) Maybe a smaller framed 645 would be the magic sweet spot. Frankly, this comes after staring down the temptation to go with a TREX of the MF world in an RB/RZ67, or even the Texas Leica (Fuji G690 BL series).... but resisting.

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Which is relevant. I just have a Texas Leica as my sole go-to Medium Format which I am very satisfied with. I just crop when wanting other aspect ratios and 8 frames a roll is quite good. However sometimes I think about having a second smaller format camera that is either lighter or doesn't "consume as much fuel". Thus my idea about 645 compact/folders. I am also planning a long trip to SE Asia and a backup option is good to have; but gladly not carrying a second Texas Leica and rather a complementary option. IMO, on paper the Fuji 645 series and GW690s have such thought.

Having had both a Mamiya 645 and a Bronica ETRS I went with the Hasselblad and a16 backs in the end. Full shutter sync for the flash not 1/60 like the Mamiya and able to shoot 6x6 if I wanted too. I have since disposed of the ETRS and the Mamiya 645 and kept the Hasselblad.

There is also the Mamiya 645 AF and AFD series; even the AFDIII will use film, and Mamiya made a new film-back for that model. I think the cameras became digital-only when made as Phase One products.

(Was a link: Mamiya 645 AF and 645 AFD series - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia)

(Sadly the links to manuals in that page are now dead)

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FWIW, I put that right at Camera-wiki: Manuals for the 1000s, the Super, Pro, Pro TL, the AF, the AFD, AFDii and AFDiii are all linked again thanks to the Internet Archive.

While I would put Pentax 645 some ways ahead of everything else in 645 department, and the original one at that, if you are to shoot in manual focus mode, do keep in mind it does run with a motor without option. And that is a noise of sound that is not for every occasion.

With that in mind I'd go for Bronica ETRSi as next option, especially since it has speed grip option for much quicker film advance and much improved overall handling, while also giving compact and rather quiet basic set up with advance crank.

Mamiya 645, the original versions, feels and sound great. I would not say the same of Pro and it's incarnations.

I just just just received my Pentax 645N last night and loaded some film. Last night I'd downloaded and printed out the Pentax Manual and it's interesting in the youtubes on operating the camera that some folks admit they don't how to do X, Y or Z... or haven't used certain functions. Surely experience tells you how to work most cameras. Duh. But somethings are missed, and as much as I've seen it written that the manual is useless, there's stuff in there that can be helpful with every camera that's the builder's often idiosyncratic way of allowing x, y or z within their design goals. There's more that only use focuses your attention on in terms of "how do I ______" or "what's this mystery button?" but I'm not there yet.

But for one, the oft stated "can't change films" is true in terms of using a film back to do so; however, Pentax (and I think at least the Nikon F100, too) has set up to provide a motorized rewind of the film back on to the starting roll should the photographer wish to substitute film inserts. Surely this would be awkward and fraught... but it is doable. You'd have to keep meticulous notes, too, as to last frame shot and be sure to re-advance to the first unshot frame on re-load, so that's not going to be something that's nearly as easy, but it's still do-able. And while in my case, I just don't find this all that limiting, I'll admit that when I load my own 35mm cartridges with bulk film, I prefer to roll 24 shots tops if I can.... because lower numbers work better for me.

As to the motor advance, one of my former cameras - a Rollieflex 6008, had motor advance that by comparison makes this sound positively quiet. The Rollieflex 6008 though did have that oh-so-German shutter sound that could have been the inspiration for Mercedes door "thunk".... and that was a marvel of its own.

Having done the 6X6 thing, this 645 frame size offers a smaller footprint no matter which you go with. The Mamiya 645 is sometimes called the RB67's smaller sibling... and I think it's similarly sized. Some have made the suggestion that the all-in-one Pentax 645N has some virtues (everyone might pick different ones) that the "system" approach can't offer - e.g. fixed, single box film path. But the Mamiya 645 lets you customize and go smaller with a manual wind. If I'd gone that way, that's what I'd do and skip the possible issues of a motorized wind. There's a lot to be said for simplicity in keeping electronics restricted to focus and exposure... and perhaps my acceptance of a motorized wind will prove an issue. Time will tell. But that said, I think MF in general (including digital Fuji's) benefits from a handle or wrist grip to help "the carry". Comparing the Pentax 645N to a Nikon F4, this Pentax MF camera body (without the lens) is virtually identical to the footprint of the F4 with an 85mm lens... But then you have to add a Pentax lens on the end of where the Nikon 85mm lens would stop. Width across the back where the film plane lies in the Pentax is slightly smaller than the Nikon, but the body depth from front to back exactly the same as my eyeballs measure it. Height of the Pentax and F4 are roughly the same.

In my case, either could work, and whatever floats your boat... "at least as best as you can do ...and do until 'better' comes along" will work." One thing I like about the Pentax 645N besides the fact that I already had an A-150mm on hand is that I came after the camera with a fairly clear purpose of keeping the shooting simple, and package of gear light-enough (it's NOT lightweight) while still getting a larger than 35mm frame. Also, I liked that Pentax still uses this form factor in the digital world and the lenses could be used on an actively manufactured camera without an adaptor (I've tried using the 150mm on a GFX with an adaptor but the bulk and added weight just ain't worth it). That said, this potential crossover use was NOT NOT NOT a decision point so much as a "could be". in the back of my mind. Finally, my first digital camera was a Pentax some years back... and news of their new Monochrome as well as consideration of re-entering film photography spiked enough of my curiousity to add some intangibles to the mix.

Would I like a 6X7 frame size? Sure, but that's not nearly as portable... and recognizing that is a matter of experience and pushing that "bigger frame size" up to a "yes it ONLY sits on a tripod camera" (4X5) and either shooting sheet film or using a 6X9 roll back formed my decision.

Not sure any of this will help your decision, but perhaps. In any case, decide-buy-and-enjoy! Have fun.

mshchem said:

I used a Bronica ETRSi for years worked great. Inexpensive, great lenses.

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+1. Still have mine, love the camera and the lenses, esp. the macro.

youtubes on operating the camera that some folks admit they don't how to do X, Y or Z... or haven't used certain functions

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Isn't that the truth? I would be embarassed to make a vid where my script went 'I don't know about this', but some people want to be on the internet more than they want to get it right.
I was stuck getting an interior panel off (in my car, not a camera) and watched one youtube where the guy stated baldly 'you just have to pull; Ford didn't intend these fasteners to be removable', another said you need a special tool, and the third guy actually knew what he was talking about.

I have the winder for my Mamiya 645 Pro, but I have the crank on the camera for now. The grip makes it so big, and so loud; and I'm rarely in a hurry for the next frame. If I'm using a prism finder, I do prefer the position of the shutter release at the top of the grip. Again, for now, I have the WLF on instead, so I'm holding the camera like a TLR, and the front-of-body shutter button is fine.

Enjoy your camera!

Dustin: You're running the Mamiya 645 Pro exactly how I would. And frankly, if I didn't have two Pentax 150mm's I'd bought as a failed attempt at a short tele for the GFX (the 67 version and the 645) I might have swung the other way... 'cause I like the TLR feel with a WLF and I'd actually seen some real photographer's recommend the WLF over the prism. And absolutely.... I didn't want the motorized wind and so would have done the left-hand manual grip accessory which just makes a lot of sense to me.

Anyway... dug out my 67mm filters this morning and shooting a test roll. LOVE the feel in my hand. My TLR just didn't give this feel, and it was fun to go out and recapture one of my favorite local shots with a portrait tele... the way it ought to be captured. My TLR couldn't do that either.... though it did very very well. Good to have choices again. TLR is going up for sale.... which is kind of a shame given it's a full kit, had a CLA, etc. but that's the way of the world.

I would love to have a GS-1 style grip on my Mamiya 645 Pro TL. For those who're not familiar with them: it features thumb-powered film advance, so it is much more lightweight than motorized grips. But it offers much better ergonomics when shooting with a prism. Something like this would have been perfect for a lightweight 645 SLR like the Mamiya 645 Pro.

Steven Lee said:

I would love to have a GS-1 style grip on my Mamiya 645 Pro TL. For those who're not familiar with them: it features thumb-powered film advance, so it is much more lightweight than motorized grips. But it offers much better ergonomics when shooting with a prism. Something like this would have been perfect for a lightweight 645 SLR like the Mamiya 645 Pro.

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Need to look into Bronica ETRSi then. Speed grip on ETR is naturally smaller than the GS1 one, but functions the same and it was a stroke of brilliance from Bronica team.

The 645E has a grip without a motor, the GN401:

I have no idea if it fits any other camera besides the 'E'; I think they would have said so if it did. The shutter release linkage looks a bit clunky to me, but it may work perfectly.

JWMster said:

As to the motor advance, one of my former cameras - a Rollieflex 6008, had motor advance that by comparison makes this sound positively quiet. The Rollieflex 6008 though did have that oh-so-German shutter sound that could have been the inspiration for Mercedes door "thunk".... and that was a marvel of its own.

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Sorry to be this guy, but: There is no "Roll_ie_flex", only "Roll_ei_flex". In German, "ie" is pronounced like a long "e" (English pronunciation, so like in "tea"), while "ei" is like English "i" (like in the first letter ideal or I). I see this incorrect spelling all over the internet and wonder if people never look how it is spelled on the camera. It's like writing Leika or Hazzelblatt.

And yes, agree with your observation in youtube videos, I saw this often for different cameras...

And: love my Pentax 645n (with split-screen for better manual focussing), since I have this one, the original Pentax 645 didn't see much use...