Models

I just had a photo session yesterday with a model mayhem gal for the first time. I was really put off by the woman's attitude that she was a professional and really good at what she does.
First she was a little put off that I started to tell her what I wanted her to do, it was outdoors and I wanted to make some relationship between a rock cliff and her. Having no idea what I meant, she started to do this cliche' artistic pose. I told her not to pose like that because I don't want cliche artistic poses, I want her more natural. She asked what I meant so I made some cliche poses myself and said I hate this kind of stuff. She got very irritated and said that is what she specializes in. The rest the time was useless because she had an attitude that I was stupid or something.
Later at lunch she was talking about her modeling work and it became clear to me that her perspective is that the model is the talent who provides the pictures for the photographer to take. It never occurred to me that a model would think that she is the art and the photographer is the consumer who pays for her art of posing.
How many photographers consider that the model is the art and the talent and taking pictures of her is like buying a chance to utilize someone else's skilled posing ability?
Not for me.
Dennis

sounds like typical model mayhem to me

Hi Dennis

Successful images do not come from only the talent of the model and if that is what a model thinks, I don't think I would want to shoot with him/her. However, many very experienced models are excellent at posing and can certainly add a great deal to the creation of your images. Those who may be good at posing but don't take directions well do not necessarily benefit us as the photographers. If the model doesn't work with the photographer to acheive what the photographer is trying to work for , what's the use of working with that model?

I've worked with a number of models from Model Mayhem - some very experienced and some not so. For the most part, I have had very good results. The images that I feel have been the most successful for me are those that the model fully understands (and appreciates) what I'm trying to achieve. The best models are a joy to work with and you are pretty much guaranteed successful shooting sessions. I have not experienced a model with this type of attitude that you had to deal with and it probably would be very frustrating as you say. I think that the real experienced fine art models are used to working with both very experienced photographers and others who are pretty much beginners. You have to remember that the majority of photographers on Model Mayhem are not out for the fine art look they are out for the "Playboy cheese cake" look (sorry if I offended anyone by saying that), and that is the type of photographer that most of the models there are used to working with. I would guess that some models are just used to taking control of the posing. I know that some feel that their 2 years in modelling makes them just as experienced as our 30 years in photography.

If you are interested in knowing who some of the better Model Mayhem models are that I've worked with, send me a PM.

Dan

Why don't you interview and research your models before you book them? Check out their portfolio and see if they do have set cheesy poses that come up repeatedly. I know some male models on MM seem to have exactly ONE facial expression... funny but something I really dislike from an artistic point of view especially if you're trying to do a series of photographs.

I always meet with the model before the shoot to discuss what we're both comfortable with and happy to do. This way you can both decide if you're going to be happy spending your time shooting together. Meeting at a coffee shop for a drink and a chat is a bit cheaper and less hassle than dragging all your gear out to a site and then finding out it's not working out.

I sympathise Dennis. The best models can recognise the needs of the photographer they are working with. It sounds like you got one of the "tummy in, chest out" models who earn a good living from helping GWCs to make cliched pictures of girls on rocks, but have no idea how to collaborate.

I've found that most of these models can be coaxed into letting down their guard and doing something more interesting, but it's very frustrating when you get a bad case.

Ian makes a good point. My suggestion is to do your research as Akki14 has mentioned. I've been colaborating with models for a number of years now and I also teach workshops on shooting and working with figure models. Most of the models I work with are on MM so I would not dismiss MM as a bad resource. It's critical to find a model that is experienced in what you're trying to accomplish. I think what you'll find is that the really good art models are in fact seriously interested in working with photographers who have specific concepts and ideas. The models I work with find it much easier to work this way. I always review a model's portfolio prior to working with them and at this point will likely not work with a model the first time without references from photographers that I know who have worked with them.

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but trying to use the groups area more. I had two thoughts, one is that obviously if she's "known for" those sort of poses, that you would have seen that in her portfolio and should have expected at least some of her movements to be the same as the cheesy ones you dislike.

My other thought was that it takes two... and if she was doing something you didn't like, and you responded by physically mocking her and doing cheesy poses and made her feel incompetent by putting down the kind of work she was proud of, that attitude she was giving off was something you caused. Models are people, and they have feelings, and if you are working with someone, and then insult them, you can expect that their reactions won't always be the best. Try the next time to guide her in a way that isn't so off-putting, perhaps saying "oh that's interesting, can you try this? Don't specifically tell her "I don't like what you're doing" just say, "I have this idea and I'll try to make it happen and it's going to take some guiding but I think we can do it" that way it appears a team effort while not putting down her "trained" style.

If on the other hand, early on in the shoot, she refuses to pose the way you want, it's time to cut your losses, stop early and say, I'm sorry, I'm having trouble guiding you and I think it's best if we stop, pay her for the time she put in but not for the time she didn't, and find someone else. Explain nicely that this is your art and your concept and not at all about her ideas, and if she wants to be payed, she needs to understand that she needs to be moldable to a given situation otherwise she's no good to a real professional.

Yes it is an old thread. At the time it was my first experience with a pro model other than life drawing models. It was really sort of a philosophical question wondering about how many photographers using models expect the model to provide the art. Sometime after that I met with the model and gave her some prints from shots I had taken in between her poses. She was a little surprised at the images and very happy with them.
It was and undoubtedly will remain my last work with that sort of professional model. I know a lot of photographers enjoy that relationship but not for me.
Dennis

That makes sense, I've honestly not shot with many professionals, I tend to use "up and comers" because my process is not of the digital age FAST FAST FAST and I have elaborate lighting setups that can take an hour to set before I'm even ready to shoot, even on a beach, so for me, I can't afford a pro model at $100-$200/hour that would just be too much. But I have a few times and it's a wonderful experience, their input is helpful, I used to write poetry, and I learned that you can have an idea for what you want the poem to say, but once you start, sometimes the words flow differently and it's best to let that flow happen naturally and see where it takes you than to try to force it "back on track" because it has a mind of it's own. The same is true of modeling, I have an idea, but if the model brings her own input, I try and let some of that happen, even if it's temporary to see what might come of it, then bring it back to my path and continue on. Seems to work in general. I would be interested to see this model, is her model mayhem link available? or some other link, to see her "normal" work, and then to see your work of her? I would love to see it.