MIY developers: Most stable film developers in its life time?

baachitraka · Jan 26, 2016

I wonder which class of developers are most stable through out its life time, there by I do not need to worry about the developer activity after few weeks of mixing it.

Metol Only?

Metol-Hydroquinone?

Phenidone-Hydroquinone?

or any simple formulas that exist?

Ian Grant · Jan 26, 2016

The most stable B&W commercial developer has to be Ilford Autophen, also known as the Axford Kendall Fine grain developer. It was a PQ version of D76/ID-11 designed and sold to the photo-finishing industry. This developer could be replenished with bleed or top up replenishers depending on the machine used. Because it used Phenidone instead of Metol it had greater resistance to Bromide build up and didn'tb suffer the sudden collapse that was typical with replenished D76/ID-11 after a few months use.

Although it was only sold for commercial use there's no reason why it can't be used in regular day-light developing tanks, in fact many people have and do as it's been publish in many books although mistakenly with the claim that it's the Microphen formula. In fact Microphen is a further variation designed to give an extra stop speed increase and improved capabilities for push processing faster films.

Ian

baachitraka · Jan 26, 2016

The real challenge may lay on measuring the Phenidone. 0.2g in Axford Kendall formula and 0.13g in ID-68.

Ian Grant · Jan 26, 2016

baachitraka said:
The real challenge may lay on measuring the Phenidone. 0.2g in Axford Kendall formula and 0.13g in ID-68.

It's why I use an old fashioned chemical balance that can be read to +/- 0.001 of a gram, I had two sets of scales that measured to +/- 0.00001 of a gram nad they had to be certified as accurate every year.

In reality though I always make up larger quantities with film developers, so Autophen or ID-68 (Microphen) I'd make up 2.5 or 5 litres, and with paper developer like ID-78 I mix up a commercial concentration 2.5 times the published formula but I substitute the Sodium Carbonate with Potassium Carbonate and Sodium Hydroxide otherwise it would tend to drop out of solution.

You can make a stock solution of Phenidone in Glycol anywhere between 1-5%, that way you overcome weighing small amounts.

Ian

Gerald C Koch · Jan 26, 2016

The most stable class of developers would be those containng a large amount of sulfite (> 70 g/l) and having a low pH (< 9). Examples would be D-23, D-76, Microdol, Perceptol, and the already mentioned Autophen. Least stable would be the staining developers which contain a small amount of sulfite and have very activive developing agents such as pyrogallol.

In my estimation D-23 is an under appreciated formula. It is easy to mix, has good shelf-life and is very flexible in its mode of use. It can be used full strength with or without replenishment, diluted in various strengths, and even as a two bath developer.

BTW both D-23 and D-25 share the same replenisher D-25R.

Gerald C Koch · Jan 26, 2016

Developer longevity is a rather strange quantity on which to base the choice of a developer to use. Usually people consider tonality, film speed increase and other concepts.

Kevin Caulfield · Jan 26, 2016

FX-55 is supposed to be stable as the liquid Part A lasts indefinitely and powder Part B is added just prior to use. I'll be testing it soon as I have mixed Part A in preparation.

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RobC · Jan 26, 2016

I believe if you use glycol or Triethanolamine (TEA) instead of water to mix your developer stock, the keeping properties are far superior which is why the likes of HC110, Ilford DDX, Tetenal Ultrafin etc keep so well. i.e. the syrup based developers.
There are formulas out there for mixing glycol or Triethanolamine (TEA) based developers if you search.

here's a couple:
View attachment 123721

baachitraka · Jan 27, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
Developer longevity is a rather strange quantity on which to base the choice of a developer to use. Usually people consider tonality, film speed increase and other concepts.

True. It is good to know that there are very good MIY alternatives to my beloved D-23 @1:1. For the time being I will stick to D-23.

baachitraka · Jan 27, 2016

RobC said:
I believe if you use glycol or Triethanolamine (TEA) instead of water to mix your developer stock, the keeping properties are far superior which is why the likes of HC110, Ilford DDX, Tetenal Ultrafin etc keep so well. i.e. the syrup based developers.
There are formulas out there for mixing glycol or Triethanolamine (TEA) based developers if you search.

here's a couple:

PC-TEA is the one I remember but how good will be D-23 when mixed either with Glycol and TEA?

Anon Ymous · Jan 27, 2016

baachitraka said:
PC-TEA is the one I remember but how good will be D-23 when mixed either with Glycol and TEA?

I don't know how easy - possible it is to mix D23 in Glycol, but keep in mind that TEA is a strong base and as such will require a total reformulation of the developer.

Ian Grant · Jan 27, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
Developer longevity is a rather strange quantity on which to base the choice of a developer to use. Usually people consider tonality, film speed increase and other concepts.

In the commercial world D76/ID-11 and vesrions from almost all other manufacturers was the mainstay of the photographic industry, it was used in deep tanks as well as photo-finishing machines. Longevity was an issue because of the gradual bromide build up, Iford's research department initially published a simple PQ version of ID-11 but spent time improving the buffering and analysing how the developer exhausted under different conditions

The issue with D76/ID-11 is that you can't keep just topping it up you need to keep removing a proportion of the used developer and add more replenisher to compensate, and this can only be sustained for a few moths. With the analysis Ilford did they were able to optimise replenishment and there was one for bleed systems but more importantly there was one for the far more efficient and economic topping up system. Ilford reported that one lab had been running for years using Autophen just replenishing the developer.

On a smaller scale I would use Xtol replenished and stored in a full bottle and it would last over a year, this meant I could use it with confidence when I returned to the UK while living abroad.

Longevity is also down to storage, glass bottle or in my case high density plastic bottle. Stored correctly I've had Pyrocat HD made up in water last just over 4 years, butn in the wrong bottles it lasts months.

Another issue can be the freshness of the chemicals, for instance old Metabishulphite can be almost useless it really needs to be reasonable fresh to have good preservative properties.

Ian

RobC · Jan 27, 2016

Anon Ymous said:
I don't know how easy - possible it is to mix D23 in Glycol, but keep in mind that TEA is a strong base and as such will require a total reformulation of the developer.

+1

Its not as simple as just switching from water to glycol or TEA. That's why i suggested doing some searches for tea or glycol based formulas. I only have those two but I believe there are others.

Theere are handful of other formulas in the The Darkromm Cookbook. Mostly staining but not all. There also is more info about TEA and Propylene Glycol.

RobC · Jan 27, 2016

these are three from the cookbook

PCTEA

PCTEA is a Phenidone-ascorbic acid developer with triethanolamine (TEA for short) activator.
Using this formula, I can’t find the grain in HP5 or TMAX 400 at less than a 20-power enlargement. Even in very thin negatives of low contrast, shadow detail is still apparent. The following formula may be scaled up to any desired amount.

TEA, 100.0 ml
Phenidone, 0.5 g
Ascorbic acid, 9.0 g

Heat the solvent to 250F/121C in a water bath, such as a double boiler with the top part covered to prevent condensation of water vapor into the developer concentrate. It won’t boil, but some steam may be given off if there is any water in the solvent mixture. Steam will arise when the powdered ingredients are added, which I presume to be water produced in the reaction between the ascorbic acid and part of the TEA. Once the powders have dissolved they will remain in solution and as long as water is kept out of the stock it will not oxidize by exposure to air.

NOTE: Metol is not soluble in this solvent.

You can play with the dilution. I recommend 1 part of concentrate to 50 parts of water for starters.
Dilute 1+50 and use the same initial developing times as D-76 1:1.

CATPTEA

The name does not refer to its appearance or its bouquet. I just couldn’t resist. This is a staining developer containing catechol and Phenidone. You may use hydroquinone in place of the catechol if you like to save money. They are both dihydroxybenzene, the difference being in the location of one of the OH groups on the benzene ring. Both are staining developers.

TEA, 100.0 ml
Catechol, 10.0 g
Phenidone, 0.25 g

Heat as for PCTEA. Dilute 1+100 for use. The negatives will look thinner and of lower contrast to the eye than to the printing paper, and lower in contrast to VC than to #2-graded paper. If you use a 10% sodium Sulfite solution to dilute the stock, you will have a developer similar to D-76.
You can experiment with different proportions of stock, Sulfite solution, and water.

PPTEA

This name does not refer to its appearance but to the fact that pyrogallol and Phenidone are the developing agents.

TEA, 100.0 ml
Pyrogallol, 10.0 g
Phenidone, 0.25 g

Heat as for PCTEA. Dilute 1+100 for use. Again, the negatives will be stained and look thinner and less contrasty to the eye than to the paper, and of lower contrast to VC than to graded paper.

Effects of Adding Sulfite
There is no Sulfite in either the stock solution or the working solution. There are, in fact, no inorganic compounds in the stock solution. There is nothing to keep you from adding Sulfite to the working solution, but try it first as is. If you add a tiny amount of Sulfite to CATPTEA or PPTEA, say one-quarter teaspoon to the liter, its activity will increase because of the activation by the Sulfite of the superadditivity between Phenidone and hydroquinone, catechol or pyrogallol. Graininess will also increase. It will still be a staining developer until you add a fair amount of Sulfite.

Peter Schrager · Jan 27, 2016

What's the developer ratio for the pptea

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RobC · Jan 27, 2016

the book doesn't say. I would start with 1:100 the same as CATPTEA and see what you get. I haven't tried these developers.

following post suggests 1+100

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

MIY developers: Most stable film developers in its life time?

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