Mixing "old brown" lith...

stradibarrius · Apr 30, 2010

If I have old brown from one "lith" developer can I mix it with old brown from a different lith developer. I'm guessing "non" but I thought I would ask anyway.

Mike Wilde · Apr 30, 2010

The confusion reins with the last 5 years use of the term "lith".

If you mean 'real' lith developer like mix part A (usually developing agent and preservative) wih Part B (usally alkali - and a strong one at that) and use it within the first 15-30 or so minutes of combining the A+B before it goes brown, then we are talking Lith film with blacks black as can be and clear white - no greys. You can't reuse this developer.

If you mean the modern 'Artiste' meaning of the word Lith, where you massively overexpose a print, and then plunk it into weak, aged, mungy old developer, and yank it from the developer at just the precise moment that infectious development begins, and not a second too late, then, yes, it may be a reasonable prospect to combine aged developer.
Lith of this sort is usually never repeatable, so creating a unique and non repaetable developer mix should not be an impediment to trying the same thing later on.

Rich Ullsmith · Apr 30, 2010

The only reason I don't mix say Kodalith OB with LD20 developer is because when things aren't working the way I want, which is often, it's one less question mark to deal with.

Keep some expired non-DI paper around. And if you get a really good tray of developer, keep it all for later. Don't throw the good stuff away!

Dan Henderson · May 1, 2010

I believe that Tim Rudman has written in one of his books to NOT mix Old Brown from one lith developer into another brand, stating that the formulas are different and may not be compatible.

MVNelson · May 1, 2010

in general it is probably a bad idea to mix old brown of different formula with your working solution. The old brown addition should be purposeful, i.e. to initiate early color enhancement to your 1st few prints and or to help stablize the your working solution for more consistency. You might get lucky by trying using non matched lith developers but more likely you'll get a lot of "side effects" that won't be easily controllable. That being said you should experiment with lith and keep good notes. You may come up with something worth sharing here. BTW I did try this very thing with Moersch/LD20 nothing exciting happened except my tray of developer died pretty soon thereafter and I loss my ability to resuscitate it as I normally do. The expert say don't mix ....

Bob Carnie · May 1, 2010

I never worry about this, and have mixed two different old browns on many occasions with results I have expected.

I will say that if you are using the same tray for Dektol and Lith which I do , it is very important to rinse the trays well between developers. I have had real problems not rinsing Dektol out before lith printing.

stradibarrius · May 1, 2010

This is what I thought...but it never hurts to ask.

Guillaume Zuili · May 1, 2010

Bob Carnie said:
I never worry about this, and have mixed two different old browns on many occasions with results I have expected.

I will say that if you are using the same tray for Dektol and Lith which I do , it is very important to rinse the trays well between developers. I have had real problems not rinsing Dektol out before lith printing.

Not rinsing well enough the tray. That just happened to me this week. Very frustrating !

Bob Carnie · May 1, 2010

Hey give me a call, I am in Germany, Poland, UK and Paris in November I need a couch to sleep on or a good bed with lots of food/wine served to me and my wife, You will need to translate for me as well as I can't speak French that well.

Guillaume Zuili said:
Not rinsing well enough the tray. That just happened to me this week. Very frustrating !

Guillaume Zuili · May 1, 2010

I know you can't speak french !!!!!
I will have a show in Paris in november. Perfect timing.

Bob Carnie · May 1, 2010

Never mind your show.... How about the bed, wine and food.

Guillaume Zuili said:
I know you can't speak french !!!!!
I will have a show in Paris in november. Perfect timing.

2F/2F · May 1, 2010

Mike Wilde said:
The confusion reins with the last 5 years use of the term "lith".

If you mean 'real' lith developer like mix part A (usually developing agent and preservative) wih Part B (usally alkali - and a strong one at that) and use it within the first 15-30 or so minutes of combining the A+B before it goes brown, then we are talking Lith film with blacks black as can be and clear white - no greys. You can't reuse this developer.

If you mean the modern 'Artiste' meaning of the word Lith, where you massively overexpose a print, and then plunk it into weak, aged, mungy old developer, and yank it from the developer at just the precise moment that infectious development begins, and not a second too late, then, yes, it may be a reasonable prospect to combine aged developer.
Lith of this sort is usually never repeatable, so creating a unique and non repaetable developer mix should not be an impediment to trying the same thing later on.

There should be no confusion in this post. When someone says "lith" developer, especially with "old brown" as part of the post, it is very clear what they are talking about.

Lithographic developer is called just that, or, more often, "A/B" or "A+B", or just "developer" if you are talking to fellow lithographic printers, in whose company it can be assumed you are not talking about any other sort of developer.

Thomas Bertilsson · May 1, 2010

I would not recommend it. I've done it in the past and had problems with what seemed like contaminated chemistry.

Instead of old brown, you can season your lith developer with a couple of sheets of old paper with the room lights on. Gives about the same effect as adding old brown.

sun of sand · May 1, 2010

2F/2F said:
There should be no confusion in this post. When someone says "lith" developer, especially with "old brown" as part of the post, it is very clear what they are talking about.

Lithographic developer is called just that, or, more often, "A/B" or "A+B", or just "developer" if you are talking to fellow lithographic printers, in whose company it can be assumed you are not talking about any other sort of developer.

He knows!!!! Two! unnecessary postings
lol

jfish · May 3, 2010

Mike Wilde said:
The confusion reins with the last 5 years use of the term "lith".

If you mean 'real' lith developer like mix part A (usually developing agent and preservative) wih Part B (usally alkali - and a strong one at that) and use it within the first 15-30 or so minutes of combining the A+B before it goes brown, then we are talking Lith film with blacks black as can be and clear white - no greys. You can't reuse this developer.

If you mean the modern 'Artiste' meaning of the word Lith, where you massively overexpose a print, and then plunk it into weak, aged, mungy old developer, and yank it from the developer at just the precise moment that infectious development begins, and not a second too late, then, yes, it may be a reasonable prospect to combine aged developer.
Lith of this sort is usually never repeatable, so creating a unique and non repaetable developer mix should not be an impediment to trying the same thing later on.

Oi vey! :rolleyes:

You can but why? If you want to get anywhere repeatable results, then no. If you want to even know where you are during the changing of the dev. due to the by products left after each print is run through, then no. If you are only doing 1 print, don't care ever to even get close to the same result, or care the color, peppering or other artistic beauty this technique produces, the by all means, please do so.

Alexis

Thomas Bertilsson · May 3, 2010

The best way to get consistent results with lith printing is to use lots of chemistry. In the beginning I used Fotospeed LD20 and then Macolith. They are both fairly expensive.
I then started using Arista Liquid Lith, which is inexpensive, and subsequently allowed me to use a lot of chemistry each printing session. 200ml PtA, 200ml PtB, 2600ml water, and then 800ml of old brown to make an entire gallon, in a 16x20 tray. Put two sheets of expired paper in the bath with room lights on until they turn black, and now start printing.
Now comes the challenge of temperature control. I try to keep my tray volume at 80*F +/- 1*F.
This way it becomes repeatable within the first five 11x14 prints.

The fault I saw with using old brown from a different developer was that I could not get contrast in the print; the developing agent became very weak. It may work, but it may also not work. Your risk.

Mixing "old brown" lith...

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