Mixing it up to $ave money and gain convenience?

fotch · Sep 15, 2006

I am thinking about mixing my own formulas from bulk chemicals. The main advantage (for me) is being able to mix up amounts that will be used while still fresh. For example, if I were to buy Dektal in the 1 quart size, it probably would be too small. However, if I go with the 1 gallon size, I may end up at the tail end having to throw away. When I was more active years ago, I usually would have used up the larger size with no waste.

Of course, I understand you can save money by mixing from scratch (added +) as well as perhaps being able to mix up different formulas as well. I am also finding it harder to find what you want in stock from any given supplier. If I have to buy 1 bag from supplier A because only they have it in stock (when I want it) and film from supplier B because A doesnt have it in stock, the shipping cost really drives up the cost.

How much do you usually save when mixing up developer & fix from bulk chemicals vs. the prepackaged stuff?

What would be a good selection of the basic raw chemicals for B&W developers (film & prints) and fix?

What amounts of each bulk chemical should one start off with?

Roger Hicks · Sep 15, 2006

fotch said:
How much do you usually save when mixing up developer & fix from bulk chemicals vs. the prepackaged stuff?

Nowadays, virtually nothing. The only big advantages are being able to mix stuff up on demand, or mixing stuff you can't easily get.

I started mixing my own 40 years ago and no longer do it on purely economic grounds (I still do it, but not to save money).

You also need a seriously good analytical balance and a modest understanding of the chemistry involved.

Cheers,

R. (www.rogerandfrances.com)

Lachlan Young · Sep 15, 2006

Depends on the developer - eg if you want FX-2 film developer or Ansco 130 paper developer which are hard to obtain economically in Europe then mixing your own is a good idea - the biggest expense would be the glycin which lasts pretty well. In the USA the Photographer's Formulary has an excellent range of pre-measured or pre-mixed developers and fixers which saves much of your time - at the end of the day the choice is entirely yours!

Good luck,

Lachlan

Nick Zentena · Sep 15, 2006

fotch said:
How much do you usually save when mixing up developer & fix from bulk chemicals vs. the prepackaged stuff?

What would be a good selection of the basic raw chemicals for B&W developers (film & prints) and fix?

What amounts of each bulk chemical should one start off with?

Depends what you make up. Kind of hard to find something like D-23.

Sodium sulfite 10lbs
metol 1lb
potasium bromide 2lbs I think
Sodium thiosulfate [hypo] 5 lbs
Hydroquine [miss spelled I'm sure] 1 lb
Sodium metaborate?? I think this is right. 5lb

Outside of that it depends on what formula tickles your fancy. The weights are off the top of my head but sound right for a good balance of economy versus storage space. You should be albe to get everything from JD photochem if you're in North America.

Go to the Dead Link Removed website. If you buy the larger packages you'll save money. It makes no sense to buy the small sizes of most things.

Ole · Sep 15, 2006

The great (and only) advantage is the ability ti mix whatever you want in whatever quantity you want. Try to find Gevaert G232 as a commercial developer - or what about D23 with a choise of Borax and carbonate afterbaths?

I sometimes use commercial developers, but I mix all my fixer from scratch. It works, it's available, and I can make 1 dl as easily as 10 liters.

jim appleyard · Sep 15, 2006

I mix my own because I'm an Evil Scientist! Actually, I do it because I like to, because I can mix what I want, when I want and I can mix many formulas from just a few chemicals.

Pick up Anchell's "Darkoom Cookbook", and Anchell & Troop's, "Film Developing Cookbook"; lots of recipes in there, plus a grams-to-teaspoon conversion chart. Sorry Roger, I use the teaspoon method. Scales are no doubt much more accurate, but I've never had any problems with the teaspoon method.

Have fun!

gainer · Sep 15, 2006

How about 1 tablespoon ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, 1 tablespoon sodium carbonate, obtainable in quantities of 25 lbs for about $1.25/lb and a teaspoon of metol to make a gallon of print developer about like Dektol?
Look on www.unblinkingeye.com for an article called (capriciously) "Non-chromogenic Antiscorbutic Developers for Black and White" by a looney named Gainer.

For much of our work, a highly accurate balance is not required. If you can find somewhere the April 1973 issue of Petersens Photographic magazine, you will find an article "Kitchen Tested Soups" by the same looney that tells how to make a number of developers using kitchen implements, no balance required.

Roger Hicks · Sep 15, 2006

jim appleyard said:
I mix my own because I'm an Evil Scientist! Actually, I do it because I like to, because I can mix what I want, when I want and I can mix many formulas from just a few chemicals.

Pick up Anchell's "Darkoom Cookbook", and Anchell & Troop's, "Film Developing Cookbook"; lots of recipes in there, plus a grams-to-teaspoon conversion chart. Sorry Roger, I use the teaspoon method. Scales are no doubt much more accurate, but I've never had any problems with the teaspoon method.

Have fun!

Dear Jim,

No need to apologize: your way is arguably better for many brews. It's just that many who make their own are obsessive/compulsive and won't believe that teaspoons work. It all shows how much less precision there is in photography than is widely believed!

Cheers,

R.

Ian Grant · Sep 15, 2006

Ole is forgetting that it can be far more economic to mix your own chemicals, especially if you mix up reasonable size batches.

It's important to take into account the inconvenience of making up small volumes of fairly dilute chemistry. I mean by that chemistry that's not being diluted much before use.

So developers like Pyrocat (all version) and particulary PQ rather than MQ develoers, are very economic money wise & on a time to mix basis. PQ developers can be made at higher concentrations than their published formulae, an example is ID78 which in the published version is used 1+ 3, but is far better made at a higher concentration and diluted 1+9

And then there's the developers that you replenish, for about 15 years I made up Adox-Borax MQ a great developer slightly faster (film speed), finer grain & better acutance & tonality than D76 / ID11. This was the developer used for the German DIN speed test of films. This worked out extremely economic compared to buying the Ilford or Kodak equivalents. So much so that I was supplying a few commercial photographer friends who were using it in their deep tanks.

But to get the best economy you really need scale, as the raw chemicals can be expensive in small quantities. For many years I was buying many photo chemicals in a minimum of 2.5 kg packaging and some in 50 kg bags.

Having said that it is still very economic to make up most of your own chemistry

Ian

Ole said:
The great (and only) advantage is the ability ti mix whatever you want in whatever quantity you want.

Nick Zentena · Sep 15, 2006

One of the things I like is making things up already diluted. I don't make developer stock up then dilute. I make it at the final concentration. Stuff goes into solution so much easier this way. I know somebody will tell me this is wrong and stuff needs to age.

srs5694 · Sep 15, 2006

You might be interested in a spreadsheet I put together a while ago and that's slowly grown into something of a monster:

http://www.rodsbooks.com/formulas.zip

That's a direct download link to a zip file that includes both the original OpenOffice.org spreadsheet and a Microsoft Excel export of same. Different tabs provide access to raw chemical costs, various types of formulas (film developers, print developers, fixers, etc.), and a few odds and ends. The costs on the formula pages include estimates of shipping costs to Rhode Island (often based on actual orders I've placed). Most of the costs are at least a year old at this point, so there have no doubt been changes. Of course, costs for both commercial and mix-it-yourself formulas will vary depending on where you buy things, how much you pay in shipping, in what volumes you buy things, etc.

You'll find that the cost savings on developers can be pretty substantial on a percentage basis -- for instance, $0.12/roll for D-76 vs. $0.25/roll for store-bought D-76. Of course, that's still just $0.13/roll savings, which is pretty small by the time you factor in the film, other chemicals, etc., as well as costs to print your photos, the percentage cost of your camera that applies to the roll, and so on. Plus, my spreadsheet doesn't include the costs of extra materials you'll need for mixing chemistry from scratch, such as a scale (or at least measuring spoons), any books you buy, etc. (Incidentally, even a cheap sub-$50 scale is adequate for most photographic purposes; you don't need an expensive lab scale. If you buy a scale, be sure it has a resolution of 0.1g or smaller, preferably 0.01g. Cheap scales like this are likely to max out at 50-100g, so you might want to buy a second scale with worse resolution but greater capacity to measure items that are used in larger quantities.)

The cost savings for non-developer chemistry are trivial or even negative. Most store-bought fixers come in cheaper than their closest home-brew equivalents, for instance. (This would probably change if you can find a reasonably-priced local source -- the killer with fixer prices is shipping costs on either sodium or ammonium thiosulfate.)

As to advice on what and how much to buy for an initial stock of bulk chemicals, I suggest you look over the formulas in my spreadsheet, in the APUG chemical formulas section, and in various other online sources. Make a list of the formulas you're interested in mixing yourself. Multiply each one's ingredient quantities by some amount (perhaps 10) and use that as a basis for a minimum order. Check some suppliers and see what their quantities are. You'll almost certainly end up buying more or less than the amount you computed. You may also find that the incremental cost is tiny -- say, $10 for 100g vs. $15 for 500g. You might want to spring for the bigger quantity in cases like that, particularly if it's an item that's in many formulas.

Gerald Koch · Sep 15, 2006

I am fond of using one shot developers. In May I calculated how much it costs me to make my variation of the Kalogen formula. This is a highly concentrated developer which produces negatives similar to those of Rodinal. Without figuring in chemical shipment cost this concentrate costs me a little over $2 per liter. If I assume that shipping roughly doubles this cost then it is $4 per liter. Since this developer is used at 1:50 dilution the cost to develop 1 roll of 35mm film is a whopping 2 cents.

John Bartley · Sep 15, 2006

When I first started mixing my own DD23 it was mostly out of curiosity. Now I do it because it's convenient and easy.

cheers

BBarlow690 · Sep 16, 2006

I think waste is the biggest cost factor. Here's what I do:

I mix a gallon of Dektol and decant it into 16 oz bottles, with no air, tightly capped. One bottle diluted with two bottles of water gives me a trayful. The bottles of stock last practically forever.

I do similarly with Ansco 130 into liter bottles, and then dilute 1:1. I just used a 3-year-old bottle of 130 stock and it was still wonderful. And working solution 130 lasts a long time, so I even pour my tray into a 2 liter bottle and save it for reuse with subsequent proof sheets.

No waste. Economy. Kinder to my septic system.

fhovie · Sep 16, 2006

Way cheaper - most of the time. And you can mix what you may not be able to buy. And you get to feel like an evil scientist. With all those reasons, I do not understand those that do not work their way into mixing their own. (eventually)

Nick Zentena · Sep 16, 2006

BBarlow690 said:
I think waste is the biggest cost factor.

Yup that's likely my main reason for mixing my own. I only make up what I need when I need. I've been known to make 600ml of developer or some times 650ml or whatever wierd number works the best for that day.

Tom Hoskinson · Sep 16, 2006

Yes, indeed! I make the amount of developer and fixer I need when I need it.

I keep percentage solutions of several developing reagents mixed in Propylene Glycol or mixed in a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Triethanolamine. Percentage solutions dissolved in these solvents keep for years with no change in activity.

Dave Wooten · Sep 16, 2006

Ian Grant said:
.........

"And then there's the developers that you replenish, for about 15 years I made up Adox-Borax MQ a great developer slightly faster (film speed), finer grain & better acutance & tonality than D76 / ID11. This was the developer used for the German DIN speed test of films. This worked out extremely economic compared to buying the Ilford or Kodak equivalents. So much so that I was supplying a few commercial photographer friends who were using it in their deep tanks."

Ian I would be interested in the Adox-Borax MQ formula, is it published?

Thanks
Dave in Vegas

Tom Hoskinson · Sep 16, 2006

Dave Wooten said:
Ian Grant said:

.........

"And then there's the developers that you replenish, for about 15 years I made up Adox-Borax MQ a great developer slightly faster (film speed), finer grain & better acutance & tonality than D76 / ID11. This was the developer used for the German DIN speed test of films. This worked out extremely economic compared to buying the Ilford or Kodak equivalents. So much so that I was supplying a few commercial photographer friends who were using it in their deep tanks."

Ian I would be interested in the Adox-Borax MQ formula, is it published?

Thanks
Dave in Vegas

Click to expand...

Ian posted the formula in the Apug Chemical Recipes:

Adox Borax MQ (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

jim appleyard · Sep 16, 2006

I believe the Adox formula is also listed in "The Film Developing Cookbook".

dpurdy · Sep 17, 2006

I mix my own paper developer on a daily basis because it is cheap and easy and you don't need to be terribly precise for basic metol hydroquinone developers. In fact I measure sodium carbonate and sodium sulfite by volume and potassium bromide by sight. For film developers I am far more exact.

A cheap way to get sodium sulfite is to go to a chemical supply house and buy it in 60 pound bags. It is marked up unbelievably in photography supply stores. A cheap way to get sodium carbonate is to buy it in art supply stores as dye fixative. (pure sodium carbonate) Around here I get it for 6 dollars for 5 pounds.

metol and hydroquinone are pretty cheap from photographer's formulary in larger quantities.

srs5694 · Sep 17, 2006

dpurdy said:
A cheap way to get sodium carbonate is to buy it in art supply stores as dye fixative. (pure sodium carbonate) Around here I get it for 6 dollars for 5 pounds.

I'd not heard of that particular source. A lot of people buy sodium carbonate (monohydrate) as Arm & Hammer Washing Soda. The last I checked, it was $2.19 for 1558.8g in my area, or $1.40/kg. Your source costs $2.20/kg. It's possible your source is purer, though.

gainer · Sep 18, 2006

Nick Zentena said:
One of the things I like is making things up already diluted. I don't make developer stock up then dilute. I make it at the final concentration. Stuff goes into solution so much easier this way. I know somebody will tell me this is wrong and stuff needs to age.

If you get into using developers like Pyrocat, you will see the virtues of highly concentrated stock solutions. The actual quantities of the various solids required to make a liter of Pyrocat or PMK working solution are very small. A liter of the working solution is made from 10 ml of a stock solution that contains no more than 50 grams/liter of the most copious of the solids. You need only half a gram to make a liter of the working solution. It's a lot easier to measure 10 ml than to measure small weights of several different solids, so you measure larger amount of solides one time to make enough stock for 100 liters of working solution. Since many stock solutions can be made up in organic solvents, storage life has become much less a problem.

I'm not trying to get you to change developers, but to consider options if you decide to.

Mike Wilde · Sep 18, 2006

Arm and Hammer, yes, with caution, for carbonate

srs5694 said:
I'd not heard of that particular source. A lot of people buy sodium carbonate (monohydrate) as Arm & Hammer Washing Soda. The last I checked, it was $2.19 for 1558.8g in my area, or $1.40/kg. Your source costs $2.20/kg. It's possible your source is purer, though.

I too use A&H for a print developer alkali source, but discovered that some markets i.e Canada only sell the scented stuff. The scented stuff works fine. Mix it, per recipe for the paper soup of interest. A foam scum will form that can be lifted out from the top inch of the bottle after a day. The smell remains to some degree. Now I stock up when we travel to south to the US for whatever reason by car. pasenger weight restrictions on air travel has qenched that as a resupply option. It is the cheapst source of carbonate that I know of. It is a decahydrate form as I recall, so adjust mass if necessary to what your formula calls for.

Zathras · Sep 18, 2006

A quick question for Pat Gainer

gainer said:
How about 1 tablespoon ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, 1 tablespoon sodium carbonate, obtainable in quantities of 25 lbs for about $1.25/lb and a teaspoon of metol to make a gallon of print developer about like Dektol?
Look on www.unblinkingeye.com for an article called (capriciously) "Non-chromogenic Antiscorbutic Developers for Black and White" by a looney named Gainer.

For much of our work, a highly accurate balance is not required. If you can find somewhere the April 1973 issue of Petersens Photographic magazine, you will find an article "Kitchen Tested Soups" by the same looney that tells how to make a number of developers using kitchen implements, no balance required.

Pat,

Is this for a stock solution, or is this a working solution?

Thanks,

Mike Sullivan

Mixing it up to $ave money and gain convenience?

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