Mixing from Powder, Safety and Disposal

PFGS

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The only thing I feel comfortable mixing from powder is xtol, but I'd love to get over the mental block I have with other powdered chemistry. Besides being able to explore things like Ansco 130 or FX-2 or save money mixing from scratch, I've occasionally had trouble with liquid chemicals that weakened or expired on the shelf, before I even bought them.

Unfortunately, every time I read a MSDS I get freaked out. The way those break everything down into the hazards of individual powders makes it really hard to know how dangerous the resulting final preparation will be; it's one thing to suit up to prep, say, a big bottle of FX-1, and another to wonder if you are supposed to suit up every time you use it. And then there is the question of disposal.

So, what are people doing for protective equipment during mixing and use, and for storage and disposal?
 

pentaxuser

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As I understand matters there are at least several b&w developers that are perfectly safe to mix up without any special precautions. No need to suit up or worry about being a danger to yourself, your loved ones or the wider public.

pentaxuser
 
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PFGS

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pentaxuser said:
As I understand matters there are at least several b&w developers that are perfectly safe to mix up without any special precautions.
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And there are at least several that do justify special precautions, but thanks.
 

jim10219

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Have you read your local water report? Mine has 94x's the EWG's health guideline for Arsenic, 247x the amount for Chromium, 25x the amount for Chloroform, 26x the amount for Radium, etc... Yet still, it's considered safe to drink by the government (if that means anything). In fact, it's one of the safer to drink tap waters in my area, as our water treatment plant is fairly new.

My point being, it's easy to read up on the dangers of chemicals and get scared. It's also easy to ignore the dangers and get complacent. I don't know what the proper amount of precaution is to take, and I think that that's probably something we'll all have to decide for ourselves. But I would say that I wouldn't let the dangers of these chemicals stop you from using them, though I might let the dangers of them change how you use them. What I do is wear eye protection (easy because I wear glasses anyway), wear gloves, clean my work space thoroughly, and if there's any dangerous chemicals that shouldn't be sent down the drain, I store them in buckets in my garage (away from people and animals) and let them evaporate before taking them to the chemical drop off facility in my area.
 

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PFGS said:
So, what are people doing for protective equipment during mixing and use, and for storage and disposal?
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you should wear a vapor mask with canisters when mixing powders, you should pour powders into the liquid as close to the liquid as possible so dust doesn't fly around or you don't splash, and you should wear an apron and latex/nitril gloves... most of the chemistry I use has a hefty amount of hydric acid in it, and it freaks me out a little bit but I just take precautions the same way and do my best not to breathe it in. regarding disposal, its best to learn what disposal regulations are where you live, some places are more relaxed than others. many people have plastic milk jugs they put their spent chemistry into and bring them to hazmat disposal day at their local recycling center, others use a variety of silver recovery methods with their fixer. sometimes the hydric acid causes a problem though especially when it is mixed with other stuff...

best of luck
 

MattKing

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PFGS said:
And there are at least several that do justify special precautions, but thanks.
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The Darkroom Cookbook would be a good investment. Appendix 1 in the third edition specifically addresses your concerns.
It is important to understand though that there are very, very few common darkroom chemicals that require anything more than good ventilation, gloves, and glasses to
protect against splashes when you handle them. And most of the rest are more of a concern regarding acquired, allergy like sensitivities.
The MSDS is always potentially misleading, because it needs to cover the dangers of industrial level exposure.
 
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PFGS

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Thanks to all for the advice - Matt, I'm reading Appendix III (in my edition, anyway) now and I think you are right, that covers both a balance perspective and specific proceedures very well.
 

Donald Qualls

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PFGS said:
Unfortunately, every time I read a MSDS I get freaked out.
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It's true. SDS documents are written to emphasize every hazard, it seems. You should see the one for dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO) -- one of the most prevalent, and hazardous compounds on Earth. That stuff'll kill you if you get the least little bit careless with it.

jnantz said:
most of the chemistry I use has a hefty amount of hydric acid in it, and it freaks me out a little bit
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Not just hydric acid, but hydrogen hydroxide -- there are almost no photographic chemicals that don't include a major fraction of one or the other. My developers all seem to have hydrogen hydroxide (or require that they be mixed into the pure substance) and hydric acid is present in both my stop bath and my rapid fixer. And those are just as hazardous as DHMO.
 
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PFGS

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Donald Qualls said:
dihydrogen monoxide...hydrogen hydroxide...hydric acid
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Please, these are the oldest memes in the book.

I've worked in labs with truly nasty stuff, including incurable biohazards; I have a father who's been blind in one eye since early childhood due to a splash accident; and I've injured myself in countless ways over many decades of cooking, DIY and hobbies, including a cut to the bone that's left me with a semi-functional left index finger - I've learned to respect potential hazards enough to at least want to stop, think, and ask.

I suppose I should have known that even here, this question would have been a temptation to internet machismo. Don't you all have some Anthony Bourdain to read, or something?
 

Donald Qualls

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Truth be told, I'm old enough to have had a chemistry set when I was a kid, though by then (1970 or so) Gilbert had eliminated most of the really toxic stuff and anything explicitly explosive (or contributory, like potassium nitrate) or highly flammable -- which didn't leave much actual chemistry. You could, however, still buy saltpeter in the local pharmacy (cattle diuretic, this was in farm country), and I made some really useless black powder at about 13. I don't get freaked out by chemicals, in part because I had college chemistry in 1978 -- nitric, hydrochloric, and sulfuric acids (our reagents were 0.1M, but we got to see the lab TA mixing these down from concentrate a couple times). Potassium cyanide was a necessary reagent in one of our analyses. Another one could evolve hydrogen sulfide if you messed up just a little.

Real world, if you're not using something like mercury intensifier or dichromates without appropriate precautions, the chemistry side of photography is pretty safe. At least if you have the sense to take reasonable precautions -- things like no food or drink (or smoking) in the darkroom, wear goggles when mixing anything, gloves for strong acids, dichromates, and so forth, maintain good ventilation, etc. I'm almost certainly in more danger when I fire up a tiny camp stove to melt lead to make bullets -- and the only injury I've gotten from that was a little back strain lifting a hundred-plus pound bucket of wheel weights into my car.
 
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PFGS

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Donald Qualls said:
I'm almost certainly in more danger when I fire up a tiny camp stove to melt lead to make bullets -- and the only injury I've gotten from that was a little back strain lifting a hundred-plus pound bucket of wheel weights into my car.
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I know - all these things are relative, and we never worry about what's familiar to us. I don't think anything of flying down hills at 25 or 30 mph on my longboard, but I get weird about stuff like household lye...

And it's been way too long since I shot black powder...
 

Donald Qualls

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PFGS said:
And it's been way too long since I shot black powder...
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I don't even know where to buy real black locally (haven't found any local shops that carry it), and I'm not willing to pay hazmat shipping (or to buy a bunch at a time to dilute that fee). I've been using Pyrodex in my repro Remington New Army (aka 1858) and recently loaded some cartridges with American Pioneer (but haven't actually shot any of them) for my 1890-ish H&R top break .32.

I mix my own Parodinal, which uses lye. That worries me a lot less than potassium dichromate B&W reversal bleach. But like you say, it's easy to lose concern with the familiar. I work with folks where that's gone too far; they don't even take reasonable precautions with 120V 60Hz electricity...
 

grat

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Generally speaking, these are chemicals which have been used for decades by people without laboratory certifications. A healthy respect is a good idea, but there's no reason for full-on paranoia.

Basic lab safety applies-- don't sniff it, taste it, or wear it. If you're worried about spills, I suggest the blue "shop" paper towels, as they're heavily absorbent and disposable.

So far, the biggest issue I've run into is blix foaming up if you mix it too rapidly (and the more powder you mix, the slower you need to go).
 

AgX

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jnantz said:
you should wear a vapor mask with canisters when mixing powders
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A vapour mask is to protect against gases, for protection against powders a mask with a filter against particles is needed.

(As a side note: both filter types exist also in combination, though typically not applicable here, unless during dissolving gases woukd be emmitted.)
 

AgX

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If one is concerned for spreading powder particles, on may built a simple protective box from foamboard and transparent sheets. Not a glove box, but a box at one side only partially closed.
 

pentaxuser

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something like this
a double canister 1/2 face mask ( like a respirator ) which is for vapors and particles
https://ilandsafety.en.made-in-chin...e-Respirator-Double-Canister-Respirators.html
and on Ebay for cheeps
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...eDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=half+face+mask+filter

sorry to not put a photo up and messed up the "lingo"..

I've had and used one for IDK 30+ years. cost like 30$ new at the hardware store and you can get replacement canisters there too
or if you are lucky you can go to a pawn shop and get a facemask with a respirator that people who do industrial painting and fiberglass / insulation work use. lots of stuff gonna be at the pawn shop these days ( unfortunately )...
 

jim appleyard

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I take the above precautions, but I also go out in my backyard to mix powders, especially large bags like Dektol, X-tol, etc.
 

MattKing

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If you are using the store bought pouches, emptying them while submerged is a really good approach.
 

AgX

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MattKing said:
If you are using the store bought pouches, emptying them while submerged is a really good approach.
Click to expand...

But then there is the chance of powder clogging, forming morsels in the water. Or not?
 

reddesert

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I got less paranoid about photographic chemicals in the 1990s when I was checking out some hair dyes and bleaches at the supermarket and discovered that a lot of them contained hydroquinone or other reducing agents (developers).

Now, if you have ever dyed / bleached your hair or helped someone do it, you may know that it can be kind of nasty. Also my first encounter with this was 25 years ago. Probably many dyes have been reformulated to contain less allergenic ingredients than HQ. But seriously, look at the ingredients of Clairol Nice'n'Easy that you can buy at any supermarket or drugstore: https://www.clairol.com/m/master/products/new_ingredients_pdfs/NNE_Ingredients-240620.pdf
I swear you could actually develop film in this stuff, especially if you added some more alkali. I believe that one should always take safety measures around chemicals, but also that the measures should be proportionate to the risk.
 

AgX

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Yes and no... when working with fluids just by manner of working even without any safety devices one can pretty good control where the chemical gets. With powders that is much less the case. (And this is the point of this thread.)
 
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