Mixing Filters

Kevin Kehler · Jan 20, 2009

I just purchased several Hoya filters with some Xmas money, including a red, yellow, green and a circular polarizer (side note, is a blue (80a) useful in B&W?). I have been working with mainly a linear polarizer up to now, since I haven't been happy with the quality of the Cokin filters for my medium format work. Can you blend the polarizer with one of the colours, and if so, is there a particular order they should be in? (for the sake of discussion, assume there is not a problem with vignetting due to multiple filters).

Say I want a dark dramatic sky, which is the best order?
A) Red -> C-Pol -> Lens
B) C-Pol -> Red -> Lens
C) Don't blend the two filters types.

I plan on doing a bunch of experimenting to see the exact effects but thought I would get some good advice to start. I don't know if it would make a difference but I split my film usage between PanF+ and Tri-X, depending on the situation. If you have any examples of coloured filters with a polarizer in B&W, I would love to see them.

jim appleyard · Jan 20, 2009

Yes, the 80A is useful in b/w. Use it for male portraits, it darkens skin tone and gives an ortho/old time look to the image. IMO, it does not make a good filter for landscapes; the blue filter will make lue skies come out lighter, yuck. But, I know people who do it.

You can blend filters. I've never known a problem with which goes on first, but for my own personal convenience, I put the polarizer on last. It's just easier for me to rotate the filter that is at the end of the lens.

bsdunek · Jan 20, 2009

Yes, you can use a red or yellow (or others) with a polarizer. As Jim says, doesn't seem to matter which order - and the polarizer is easier to use if out front.
Remember that the colored filters filter out colors, while the polarizer filters polarized light - so there are two different effects.
If you went from a linear to circular polarizer, it won't be as effective (IMHO). I find linears have a stronger effect. I think it's because the circular lets more unpolarized light through so auto features can function. The only circular I have is for use on my video camera.

Anon Ymous · Jan 20, 2009

Hi Kev...

As others noted earlier, putting the polariser at the end will help, as the rotating element will be the last thing. One last thing though, the filter factor for a red filter is about 3. A polariser at it's maximum efficiency will have a ff about 2. We're talking about a combined ff aproximatelly equal to 5! In other words, a 1/30 sec exposure will now need 1 second!

Jerevan · Jan 20, 2009

The filter factor for a polarizer is always 2.5, regardless. In the nonpolarized position it can also double as an ND filter, with the same filter factor.

Anon Ymous · Jan 20, 2009

Jerevan said:
The filter factor for a polarizer is always 2.5, regardless. In the nonpolarized position it can also double as an ND filter, with the same filter factor.

Well, looking back at my post I realise that I messed filter factors with stops...

Anyway, a red + pol combination will cut about 5 stops of light. The actual amount depends on the filters used. A red filter cuts 3 stops (filter factor 8 I suppose), but I'm not so sure about polarisers. AFAIK, depening on the angle and the actual characteristics of the polariser it can be as much as 2 stops, but you need to see the manufacturer's data to be sure...

jim appleyard · Jan 20, 2009

There is also the belief that too many glass surfaces in front of the lens will degrade the sharpness of the image; just something to be aware of.

CBG · Jan 20, 2009

Rather than stacking filters, if you want more effect than a #25 red, there's the really strong #29 red filter.

It sounds like you may be looking to get the effect of strong red or orange filtration and increased contrast. There may come a point, where you may get better image quality from just a 25 or 29 filter by itself, and added development time to get the contrast you are looking for, rather than adding more air/glass interfaces in front of the lens.

Tiffen and B+W both seem to make 29s. Custom order nowdays but definitely available - I just checked a moment ago to confirm - with www.2filter.com.

The #29 is BEEFY DEEP red. Factor is up there - daylight 20x / 4.25 stops tungsten factor is 10x /r 3.25 Stops.

pentaxuser · Jan 20, 2009

The great thing I found with a polariser and red is that the combo make seeing the effect of the pol filter easier as you turn it. I love the effect of the two. Maybe I just like very well defined clouds but I have never found it "over the top" in terms of cloud effect. There seems to be a view that it produces an unworldly almost IR effect of near black skies. All I can say is that I have never found it to be so.

If the light conditions are such that there is a bright sky with clouds to take advantage of then you should be OK with hand-holdable exposures with 400 film and most probably with 100 film especially with wide angle lens such as 28mm where DoF is good even at bigger apertures.

pentaxuser

Kevin Kehler · Jan 20, 2009

My personal thought process was the polarizer will make the colours more intense and then the colour filter will have a greater effect since there is "more colour" to affect. My worry is much the same as Jim's, more surfaces will add potential flare, dust and degradation of sharpness. Since I primarily shoot still objects (architecture, etc.), a 5-stop drop is not much of a concern since almost all shots are on a tripod anyways; now if I can just find my reciprocity failure chart, I will be ready to go.

Thanks everyone!

wogster · Jan 20, 2009

Kevin Kehler said:
I just purchased several Hoya filters with some Xmas money, including a red, yellow, green and a circular polarizer (side note, is a blue (80a) useful in B&W?). I have been working with mainly a linear polarizer up to now, since I haven't been happy with the quality of the Cokin filters for my medium format work. Can you blend the polarizer with one of the colours, and if so, is there a particular order they should be in? (for the sake of discussion, assume there is not a problem with vignetting due to multiple filters).

Say I want a dark dramatic sky, which is the best order?
A) Red -> C-Pol -> Lens
B) C-Pol -> Red -> Lens
C) Don't blend the two filters types.

I plan on doing a bunch of experimenting to see the exact effects but thought I would get some good advice to start. I don't know if it would make a difference but I split my film usage between PanF+ and Tri-X, depending on the situation. If you have any examples of coloured filters with a polarizer in B&W, I would love to see them.

You can combine filters, what is up for debate is the quality of the filter, if you have good quality filters made of optical glass, then it should be fine to combine them, most filters though are made with 2 pieces of very thin regular glass with a gel in between, some cheap filters will use a single piece of glass that is coated for the colour, these should be avoided. A single cheap filter is probably okay, two together should be avoided.

A circular polarizer should be used on cameras where they are required, such as some of the newer auto focus cameras, older manual focus cameras should use linear polarizers, which are more effective. Of course if you have both a newer camera that needs a circular and an older camera that can use linear, you can use the circular on both. Best is to buy all filters in the largest size you need, then use step rings on smaller lenses, this will save you a lot of money.

Eston3 · Jan 20, 2009

I acutally like stacking the polarizer on first. With me under my view camera hood, it's easier to grab hold of and rotate incrementally.

largely · Jan 21, 2009

I've shot quite a bit with a #25 and a linear polarizer and gotten some excellent results. I had the filter out front and just used my cameras meter. Subject was sand dunes, buildings and clouds. Late afternoon. Give it a try.
Good luck,
Larry

Mixing Filters

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