Mixing chemicals & storage

dancqu · Aug 1, 2008

fotch said:
... rather than large jugs ... I decant the gal. into 250ML
glass amber large mouth bottles, fill to the brim, place a
small square of saran wrap (for extra protection from air)
and put the cap on.

I've quite a number of amber glass Boston Rounds. For the
storage of chemistry they are standard lab ware. Costs
are low. A variety of caps are available. The Polyseal
or Polycone caps are likely as sure a seal as can
be found.

One shot is a good idea. That gallon of D76 could go
into 4 one liter bottles. I'd then split one of those into
4, 1/4 liter bottles. One of those and an equal amount
of water equals 1/2 liter of 1:1 D-76. D-76 can and is
used even more dilute. Dan

Larry Bullis · Aug 2, 2008

jeroldharter said:
I went through a phase of figuring out storage bottles, then switching to better storage bottles, then wondering about buying glass marbles to keep the air out, then thinking of the best way to label the bottles, then getting rid of most of them. They take up a lot of room, require periodic cleaning, etc. The fewer the better.

Just find someone who likes to drink cheap boxed wine - or drink it yourself. I have kept color developers for years, with no deterioration - in the boxes. I am presently using a b&w developer that I mixed in 2000! No deterioration at all.

The best ones are the ones that have the silver mylar bags inside. Mix enough chemical to completely fill the bag, and then, the very little air that's contained in the crevices and wrinkles will quickly destroy an infinitesimal amount of the chemical, and that is where the deterioration stops.

Unfortunately, my taste in wine makes these boxes harder to find. They make pretty good boxed wines now, drinkable, at least, but the best bags are from the cheapest ones, which are disgusting. Why? I dunno.

So your developer smells like grape juice? Run controls. If it doesn't show, so much the better. I vastly prefer grape juice to say, ammonium hypo!

Paul Verizzo · Aug 2, 2008

What was that old song? "Let's get heretical?" Oh, "physical?"

1. The only difficulty in using portions of bagged dry chemicals is proportioning correctly. The possibility of getting too much or too little of a particular component borders on the close to impossible. Think about it: How did Kodak get all that stuff, in proper amounts into your little yellow sack? They mixed up bags of sulfite and whatever in the official Kodak cement mixer, stirred for a long time, and then apportioned by volume into the little envelope you bought. OK, I'm guessing that's what they do, but I'd be surprised to find out that the process is substantially different. When you divide your gallon of D-76 developer into four portions, you are just continuing a fine tradition.

2. If you have the space, freeze it. It works fine. I've done it with C-41 chemicals besides D-76. Nary a problem. And if there was one, it was a lot smaller than oxidation!

3. Food and drink containers work fine. I don't understand the reticence. Remove food labels for safety. I like the 1 qt milk bottles, very compact. I noticed yesterday that Gatorade bottles have a fairly wide mouth.

fotch · Aug 2, 2008

I would think the different chemicals have different weights and the heaviest would settle to the bottom so in spooning out some, you change the formula.

If you going to all this trouble, would it not be better to mix from scratch?

Or mix the whole package and decant into smaller bottles without air?

Film cost more than the chemicals so why risk it?

Maybe something you really wanted gets spoiled or you get poor results and you think its you rather than the chemicals you just altered

Penny wise, pound foolish IMHO.

Paul Verizzo · Aug 2, 2008

fotch said:
I would think the different chemicals have different weights and the heaviest would settle to the bottom so in spooning out some, you change the formula.

Solid chemicals don't move around relative one to another, you may have noticed. And presuming they did, there is an ancient technique to correct this, commonly known as "stirring."

I'm not advocating this, I'm just saying it's not a big deal if someone, somewhere wants to do it. There are a LOT of opinions about practices and procedures here and the funny thing is, most people's work for them regardless of what others may think.

I mix everything from scratch, so it doesn't concern my own practices.

Murray Kelly · Aug 2, 2008

Like Paul, I have subdivided powders after careful weighing first. As he says, mix thoroughly. Drug companies use a 'cement mixer' so why not Kodak?
Actually if you look hard at a dry mix all the big lumps come to the top. The smaller pieces go thru the gaps, so to speak. Look at your collection of nuts and bolts. All the little ones are at the bottom.

As for the wine cask liners - yes! I've been doing that too. Have a gallon of Dektol and a gallon of hypo concentrate in 4 or 5 liter casks. Unlike some with bad experiences the casks are good value here in Australia. They have premium wines, too, in 2 L casks but the bottle prices are abt. the same so why bother? Except, perhps to get the 2L bag.

It's not difficult to get all the air out after you replace the rubber 'tap' by just laying it on its back and pushing the end until the fluid comes into sight. Mylar is a very good plastic to exclude oxygen apparently. Why else would they use anything that wasn't, to preserve the wine? Wine that oxidised like a developer would be undrinkable long before the developer gave up the ghost.

Murray

Larry Bullis · Aug 3, 2008

Paul Verizzo said:
...Food and drink containers work fine. I don't understand the reticence. Remove food labels for safety.

White pigmented shellac covers all.

I like the 1 qt milk bottles, very compact.

I don't like them. The bottles give out before the chemicals do. When they give out, you have good chemicals all over your floor.

Larry Bullis · Aug 3, 2008

Murray Kelly said:
...

As for the wine cask liners - yes! I've been doing that too. Have a gallon of Dektol and a gallon of hypo concentrate in 4 or 5 liter casks. Unlike some with bad experiences the casks are good value here in Australia. They have premium wines, too, in 2 L casks but the bottle prices are abt. the same so why bother? Except, perhps to get the 2L bag.

It's not difficult to get all the air out after you replace the rubber 'tap' by just laying it on its back and pushing the end until the fluid comes into sight. Mylar is a very good plastic to exclude oxygen apparently. Why else would they use anything that wasn't, to preserve the wine? Wine that oxidised like a developer would be undrinkable long before the developer gave up the ghost.

Murray

My wife went on a poetry conference thing for a week, so I bought a 3 liter box of "Black Box Paso Robles Cabernet Sauvignon". It wasn't bad! Took me four days to finish it off! Rate=1 bottle/day. About right!

Not the silver mylar, but I've been using similar boxes and I'm not sure yet when the plastic gives up. Should be good for a while. The one problem is that instead of the press ON plastic or rubber spigot the cheapest wines have, it has a press IN device that is extremely hard to get out. I'm thinking a "valve lifter" from the local auto parts store may be the appropriate tool. It may take some work with the jeweler's saw to fit it to the container. If not, I'll have to devise my own puller. But I will. These things are the god's gift to photographers.

Larry

Murray Kelly · Aug 3, 2008

I can't quite picture the spiggot you describe. I've only seen the rubber and a plastic tap arrangement. Couldn't you just use a funnel?
In 30+ years of buying casks I've only ever seen one fail. There was some wine between the layers, somehow. Some problem with the welding I guess. Naturally it didn't stop me getting the last drop!

Murray
Larry:"The one problem is that instead of the press ON plastic or rubber spigot the cheapest wines have, it has a press IN device that is extremely hard to get out."

Larry Bullis · Aug 3, 2008

Murray Kelly said:
I can't quite picture the spiggot you describe. I've only seen the rubber and a plastic tap arrangement. Couldn't you just use a funnel?
In 30+ years of buying casks I've only ever seen one fail. There was some wine between the layers, somehow. Some problem with the welding I guess. Naturally it didn't stop me getting the last drop!

Murray

Murray,

The funnel isn't the issue, it is that the spigot is rammed into the receiver in the bag so tight, with moulded pressure rings, that when trying to get it out the plastic can't stand the stress and it breaks. Since I'm just using a table knife or some such tool, it puts a lot of pressure on a small point. If I can distribute the stress over a larger area it may work better.

Our co-op has another and even cheaper box - of an Oz wine, Banrock Station. I'll give it a try. It may have a more agreeable spigot.

ALWAYS get the last drop. Waste is sinful.

Murray Kelly · Aug 3, 2008

Quick reply - going out to dinner with the kids . Banrock Station is OK - but I've never seen a cask from them.
The spiggot thingie sounds like a job for a gear puller?

Cheers, Murray

dancqu · Aug 3, 2008

What Ever!

What ever is used be sure it is clear.
Inside surfaces are collectors of precipitates
which one should be aware of while the container
is in use and when it is needed to be cleaned. Dan

Paul Verizzo · Aug 3, 2008

?????

bowzart said:
White pigmented shellac covers all.

I don't like them. The bottles give out before the chemicals do. When they give out, you have good chemicals all over your floor.

Say wha'? The new style #1 PETE milk bottles? What ARE you storing anyway? Do we need to call DHS?? :rolleyes:

But seriously, PETE is the best, least oxygen permeable beverage container out there. AAFAIK, 100% resistant to all common photo chemicals.

Larry Bullis · Aug 3, 2008

Paul Verizzo said:
Say wha'? The new style #1 PETE milk bottles? What ARE you storing anyway? Do we need to call DHS?? :rolleyes:

But seriously, PETE is the best, least oxygen permeable beverage container out there. AAFAIK, 100% resistant to all common photo chemicals.

Are these PETE things those sort of cloudy ones? Or something I haven't seen. You know, I live 20 miles from the headquarters of the international Dairy Cow Institute; we keep our milk in cows around here. Cows are lousy photo chemical containers, at least I think so.

I've had milk containers deteriorate in less than a year. Tell me what I need to know.

Larry Bullis · Aug 3, 2008

Murray Kelly said:
...
The spiggot thingie sounds like a job for a gear puller?

Cheers, Murray

Yep. Auto parts store is next stop.

Paul Verizzo · Aug 3, 2008

bowzart said:
Are these PETE things those sort of cloudy ones? Or something I haven't seen. You know, I live 20 miles from the headquarters of the international Dairy Cow Institute; we keep our milk in cows around here. Cows are lousy photo chemical containers, at least I think so.

I've had milk containers deteriorate in less than a year. Tell me what I need to know.

Turn your cow, I mean bottle, over and check the recycling code number. If it is #1 it is PETE. See more, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_plastic Mylar and Dacron are PETE. Whoddathunk?

I see there that it can also be clear, milky, or opaque. The only type I've ever seen, AFAIK, is transparent.

Larry Bullis · Aug 3, 2008

I just found the "Black Box" wine site, and learned that the bag inside their boxes is made of polycarbonate (7). This seems to have a certain lack of specificity; while polycarbonates can be used to make bulletproof "glass" etc. there is no way to tell just which polycarbonate it is. Also, the manufacturer cautions that a small amount of oxygen actually does pass through the plastic, so wine (or developers) will eventually deteriorate. They suggest a max 3 month shelf life. I suspect that this would be ok for the photo chemicals, also, and so I'm going to date the boxes if I choose to use them. Also, I found that certain chemicals are known to attack these plastics; among them are strong bases, including NaOH.

So, according to your suggestion, Paul, I'm looking for a kind of box wine container that contains PETE. The old ones I have used with such spectacular success had the silver mylar material; those don't seem ever to deteriorate. Odd, but the absolute WORST wine seems to come in those. The kind that they put under the display racks that have the bottled wine, or on the lowest shelf. I was using 5 liter containers from "Franzia"; I do know someone who drinks that stuff so maybe I can get more. 5 liters can be quite a lot for some chemicals, however. I think it would be worthwhile to try to find some other bottle sizes.

Anyway, I'm looking.

Larry Bullis · Aug 3, 2008

I just searched for "mylar bag liquid" (no quotes as google search terms, quotes would require exact phrase) and found this. PERFECT, and you can't beat the price! No box, however; maybe it will fit in a wine box.

http://www.survivalsolutions.com/store/product40.html

Even better. It does come with a box. http://survivalsolutions.com/store/product41.html

Paul Verizzo · Aug 3, 2008

Great research!

bowzart said:
I just searched for "mylar bag liquid" (no quotes as google search terms, quotes would require exact phrase) and found this. PERFECT, and you can't beat the price! No box, however; maybe it will fit in a wine box.

http://www.survivalsolutions.com/store/product40.html

Even better. It does come with a box. http://survivalsolutions.com/store/product41.html

I've only ever seen those mylar types of liners. I never knew that there is a flexible polycarbonate, but I'm no petroengineer (although two daughters of mine have degrees in same!) Frankly, I would think that the answer is incorrect; it happens you know. :rolleyes:

Almost thirty years ago I bought a blue nylon 1 gal water bag, it used the mylar type of liner and same cap as the wine type. Eventually it leaked so I just got a Franzia box and suffered through the wine. Perfect replacement except for the necessity of moving the hole. It was also a good air pillow.

Murray Kelly · Aug 3, 2008

I get your point, but there's a lot of those concertina bottles out there that are very opaque. And they are designed for photo use. Brown bottles need a very careful inspection with good light to see into. Most of the plastic bottles I see with fresh chems. are far from 'clear'. More like cloudy or misty.

Murray

dancqu said:
What ever is used be sure it is clear.
Inside surfaces are collectors of precipitates
which one should be aware of while the container
is in use and when it is needed to be cleaned. Dan

Larry Bullis · Aug 4, 2008

The survival solutions bags are exactly the same type as the old Franzia bags that I've had such great success with. They have the same kind of rubber or plastic spigot arrangement, which works better for filling the bag and works ok for dispensing. The newer type works best for dispensing but is hard to fill. I checked the Franzia site, and it appears that they have changed, too, so maybe the survival bags are the best source now.

I bought a cask of Banrock Station, and it looks to me as though the bag, although it seems silver, resembles suspiciously the Black Box and others which are polycarbonate, and probably not as good for our purposes. It doesn't feel quite right. But I'm going to look at it more carefully when I can.

As for cleaning, it seems to me that rinsing a few times with hot water and not changing chemicals between fills ought to suffice.

L.

Paul Verizzo · Aug 4, 2008

Murray Kelly said:
I get your point, but there's a lot of those concertina bottles out there that are very opaque. And they are designed for photo use. Brown bottles need a very careful inspection with good light to see into. Most of the plastic bottles I see with fresh chems. are far from 'clear'. More like cloudy or misty.

Murray

And all this time I thought I was playing the accordian. Now I find out it's a concertina. Does D-76 need more or less time?

I've always presumed that said bottles were of a polyethylene. No idea of permeability.

If you ever find a leaker, fix it with a daub of Goop, the thick clear repair cement.

Murray Kelly · Aug 4, 2008

So, Paul, you play thr photophone?

Dunno what those are made of - I was given a couple but found them too awkward to use. Certainlt not transparent.

Larry I have used IV bags with a springback paperclip to clamp the in/outlet. Convenient if all you want is 1L or even 500ml and some are 100ml. No air gets in and they stay in the fridge in the dark and cold.
I read somewhere the cask liners are mylar and have an aluminium coat. Not much Al tho - take one sheet and you can see light through it.
I always rinse well and only ever use once. They are so easy to come by in this house!

Murray

jeroldharter · Aug 4, 2008

I like the notion of using gear for unintended purposes in innovative ways, but to me all of this seems overboard.

When I mix chemicals, I am not thinking about how I might pass them on to my children. Really, if a chemical is used so infrequently that it will take years to use, then mix dilute one-shot small quantities only and buy fresh if there is any doubt about the stock. To me, the darkroom is similar to the kitchen. I don't want the world's best tupperware so that I can use year old lettuce. I want fresh ingredients for a good meal.

Murray Kelly · Aug 4, 2008

Fair enough - I'm mean tho. Seems so wasteful to toss out stuff because you couldn't buy smaller qty. and it just grew old.

Murray Kelly MB ChB DA (Lond) FFARCS(Eng) FFARACS FANZCA

jeroldharter said:
I like the notion of using gear for unintended purposes in innovative ways, but to me all of this seems overboard.

When I mix chemicals, I am not thinking about how I might pass them on to my children. Really, if a chemical is used so infrequently that it will take years to use, then mix dilute one-shot small quantities only and buy fresh if there is any doubt about the stock. To me, the darkroom is similar to the kitchen. I don't want the world's best tupperware so that I can use year old lettuce. I want fresh ingredients for a good meal.

Mixing chemicals & storage

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