Mixing borax & lye........

ongarine · Apr 5, 2006

Today I mixed borax & lye to have ready solution of Kodak Sodium mataborate aka Kodalk.
I used the quantity, 45.56 g of Borax + 9.53 g NaOH , I found on the darkroom cookbook of Anchell to have 100 grams of Sodium Metaborate
I had great difficult to dissolve all the borax and lye, a little undissolved deposit remain on the bootom of the beaker and the borax started to dissolve only when the lye was put in the water.
Is it normal?
Now I found Pat Gainer indication with different quantity, 69 g of Borax + 14.5 g NaOH of chemicals to obtain Sodium metaborate.
Is it possible to add to the solution I got the borax and lye to reach the Gainer indication? Or everything will go wrong?
Thanks for your answers

Gerald Koch · Apr 5, 2006

47 grams of borax will dissolve in a liter of water at 20 C. You can always adjust the amount of either chemical afterwards if you have made a mistake. Sodium metaborate is more soluble than borax and so it is possible that all the borax to dissolve only when the lye has been added.

BTW, I live in Florida and can no longer find lye in the stores. In the future we may have to buy sodium metaborate rather than make it.

dancqu · Apr 5, 2006

Those ratios look very much the same.
Add more of each to make the Gainer
strength. You'll have a liter +. Dan

jim appleyard · Apr 5, 2006

Gerald, my supermarket no longer carries Red Devil lye, but the hardware store does. Perhaps a look there?

gainer · Apr 5, 2006

The ratios are the same with enough accuracy for government work. Some people are confused by the fact that there are two metaborates, called 4 mol and 8 mol. 10 grams of either one, dissolved in water, give the same number of boron, sodium, hydrogen and oxygen atoms in the solution. The complete molecule of the 8 mol is twice as heavy as the complete molecule of the 4 mol because everything is doubled, including the water of crystallization. This is the gospel according to 20 Mule Team. If you think there is twice as much water of crystallization in 10 grams of 8 mol as in 10 grams of 4 mol, you are wrong, and your calculated metaborate solution will be too weak.

szazs · Apr 6, 2006

BTW, I live in Florida and can no longer find lye in the stores. In the future we may have to buy sodium metaborate rather than make it.

Gulp! This is a real bummer. I live beachside, and bought Red Devil a month 'er two ago, but haven't missed it on the shelves...FAH! I reluctantly horded some APX-100, now I'll have to hord Red Devil as well...I hate that. The gumment keeping us safe from ourselves...

titrisol · Apr 6, 2006

yep red devil lye or piranha lue are dissapearing form the shelves.
The guy at the hardware stroe told me they were asked to remove it sonce it was being used to make street drugs.

gainer · Apr 6, 2006

Next they will remove slaked (hydrated) lime, so we'll have to find a new way to make mortar.

Gerald Koch · Apr 6, 2006

jim appleyard said:
Gerald, my supermarket no longer carries Red Devil lye, but the hardware store does. Perhaps a look there?

Thanks Jim for the tip, I will have to check. You can get it from The Chemistry Store but its twice as expensive. Why is it that only honest people get hassled?

titrisol · Apr 6, 2006

because honest people have given away a few of their liberties.....

Wayne · Apr 6, 2006

titrisol said:
yep red devil lye or piranha lue are dissapearing form the shelves.
The guy at the hardware stroe told me they were asked to remove it sonce it was being used to make street drugs.

By golly, that oughta take care of the problem! Take that, you druggies!

Wayne

srs5694 · Apr 6, 2006

As this is off topic, I'll just toss this out and then post no more on the topic....

Before griping too much about paying an extra buck or two for sodium hydroxide or taking pot-shots at drug addicts, people in this thread might want to look into the problems associated with methamphetamine, which is (AFAIK) the main drug that's made with lye. Another ingredient in methamphetamine is found in certain over-the-counter cold remedies, which is why there are proposals to restrict access to these products in various ways. One state (Oregon, IIRC) has already done so in a fairly serious way.

Methamphetamine is highly addictive and is fairly easy to make, given access to the appropriate raw materials. Meth addiction is causing serious problems in the western United States, and its popularity is spreading east. It's not just a question of people getting addicted and harming themselves, either; meth addicts end up in trouble that causes problems for others -- they engage in petty crime, get arrested, lose their jobs and end up on welfare, etc. Thus, controlling meth addiction is a real problem for society as a whole. The hope is that by restricting access to lye, OTC cold remedies, etc., society as a whole will pay a lot less in terms of crime, police salaries, etc. The cost is that people having legitimate uses for cold remedies, lye, etc., will be inconvenienced and/or pay more for them. This is a complex issue, and I respectfully suggest that people posting here should respect that complexity rather than issue glib proclamations.

Wayne · Apr 6, 2006

FYI, I wasnt taking potshots at druggies although it might seem that way at a shallow glance. I was taking potshots at the ways we fight drug problems in this country. But I'm sure that removing lye from our shelves will take care of the problem. (thats sarcasm, OK?). Do you know how easy it is to make lye?

Wayne

gainer · Apr 6, 2006

There is no doubt about the gravity of the situation. The question is will restricting the sale of caustic soda stop it or even slow it. I hate to say it, but I was serious about the possible loss of mortar made from hydrated lime. With that and pHPlus, one does not need lye. With wood ashes, one does not need lye. With enough heat and limestone and potash or soda ash, one does not need lye. Photographers and soap makers and bricklayers and oil and gas well drillers can make use one way or another of lime, soda ash and potash by using ancient recipes. We who use small quantities of lye for legitimate purposes will be greatly inconvenienced, but I doubt that those who make the meth will be stopped.

I suppose that sooner or later I will be under scrutiny for telling others how to "free base" metol. I can do it with TEA and a little water or baking soda and a little water. I don't even want to know if the same principles could be used in the meth lab. Perhaps if anyone caught in the act of making meth were subject to summary execution, the problem would be reduced in size.

titrisol · Apr 6, 2006

My country is unfortunately in the drug ring.....
Many many years ago we started having all these restrictions, it was a pain even to buy 500ml of HPLC grade acetic acid and then convincing the military to issue a permit for that when they had just issued a permit for 110 gallons (2 drums) of glacial acetic acid tech grade to the univeristy

However, drug making and dealing has not stopped, and lye, sulfuric acid, acetic acid, acetone and such are still easy to buy for those dudes

Steve Hamley · Apr 6, 2006

gainer said:
With wood ashes, one does not need lye.

There go the trees.

Steve

dancqu · Apr 6, 2006

Steve Hamley said:
There go the trees. Steve

And we cannot have that. The Earth needs
reforestation; a Gigantic increase in Biomass
prior to the CO2 problem exploding.

For esthetic reasons only I am allowing my
lot to re-tree. Dan

john_s · Apr 6, 2006

Ryuji's old web site gives some more details of the confusion:

http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/chemistry-misnomers.html

Mixing borax & lye........

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency