"(Mis)Adventures in Polysulfide Toning!" or, "How did I screw this up?"

I mixed up a batch of Photographers Formulary polysulfide toner -- first time attempting! Giddily, I dropped a mildly selenium toned print in the sauce, and gently agitated the tray whilst dreaming of the luscious brown mids and highlights which would undoubtedly complement the subtle red and aubergine in the darks. I agitated and waited, agitated and waited, for 20 minutes ...... and....... nothing. Well, the paper now looked dingy, but otherwise, no obvious change.

"No matter!" I loudly vocalized, launching an untoned print in a graceful arc ending in the toner. "Bring hither the luscious browns!" Twenty minutes later......... nothing. Well, the paper now looked dingy.

So, where would I even begin to trouble-shoot how I screwed this up? I have become moderately proficient with selenium -- I can control the tonalities from purple/aubergine on up to reddish brown on Ilford Art 300 paper (more-or-less the only paper I use these days). But, having never used anything other than selenium, I am simply not sure what "right" looks like. I am not clear if the solution is somehow bad or if I simply have unreasonable expectations of what this toner does.

Notes:

Ilford Art 300, well washed.
Photographers Formulary Polysulfide Toner, very freshly mixed at about 74 degrees Fahrenheit.
Toning time: 15-20 minutes.

Additionally: I wasn't able to completely dissolve all the solids of the Liver; there were hundreds of tiny little particles left after vigorously stirring for several minutes. The solution was, nonetheless, very yellowy-brown, with all of the large solids suitably dissolved.

I look forward to hearing thoughts on this. Thanks.

A fully (not partly) selenium toned print won't respond at all to polysulfide toner.
So try first toning another print (a test strip works great) that hasn't been selenium toned.
FWIW, when I split tone, I finish up with selenium.

MattKing said:

A fully (not partly) selenium toned print won't respond at all to polysulfide toner.
So try first toning another print (a test strip works great) that hasn't been selenium toned.
FWIW, when I split tone, I finish up with selenium.

Click to expand...

I'll reverse the sequence next time and see what happens. Thanks Matt.

In my past I did huge amounts of polysulfide toning for the prints I made for my wedding clients and I learned a few good tricks, nothing quite like spending all week on printing only to have the whole batch of wedding prints get ruined by a toning mistake.
#1 is distilled water for the toner. Any iron from a bad water line or anything would make a small blue speck usually right on the bride's gown and then a reprint.
#2 Heat the toner; I standardized on 100-103F, it was an easy temp to keep and the toning time was closer to 1-2 min so it was easier to keep all prints in the wedding batch close (25-50 prints per liter of toner).
#3. Note the dilution; my standard was as Kodak recommended; 1 oz to 32 oz but I would often cut out a few cc to make the tone go a touch more yellow for some weddings and slightly more cc's to go a touch more brown. Small adjustments.
#4. Mind your developer! You would think there would be little difference with what developer used but the formation of the image is key. More dilution and/or restrainer changes the tone and the look of the tone the print makes. Stock Dektol/D-72 at 1:1 is probably why you didn't see much change. Try Ilford Bromophen for pre-mixed (Agfa Neutol WA was ok too) or any 'Warm-Toned Print Developer" formula recipe usually with lots of Potassium Bromide added and more dilution than you think, more like 1:2 or 1:3 rather than 1:1, with long print development times (2-3 minutes). I would use the Zone VII timer that would speed up with higher temps and would have my print developer closer to 85-90F rather than 68F.
#5 Paper choice. I standardized on Ilford Warmtone Fiber, and any 'Warm-toned" paper would take toner well. I just was able to source Ilford products easier but AGFA Portriga was what I really learned how to tone with. Using stock RC paper usually gave toning results described by the OP.
Toning is a funny art. Doing massive amounts over the years gave me a lot of insight into the process, and sometimes random results would occur regardless of how perfect or consistent a process you kept. Keeping the tone going thru a whole wedding so that all prints match (or flow together) in the album or for the matted prints was a huge challenge, and prints that were printed and looked identical pre-toning sometimes would take the tone slightly differently.
The really difficult part is sourcing and delivery of the toner now...

RidingWaves said:

In my past I did huge amounts of polysulfide toning for the prints I made for my wedding clients and I learned a few good tricks, nothing quite like spending all week on printing only to have the whole batch of wedding prints get ruined by a toning mistake.
#1 is distilled water for the toner. Any iron from a bad water line or anything would make a small blue speck usually right on the bride's gown and then a reprint.
#2 Heat the toner; I standardized on 100-103F, it was an easy temp to keep and the toning time was closer to 1-2 min so it was easier to keep all prints in the wedding batch close (25-50 prints per liter of toner).
#3. Note the dilution; my standard was as Kodak recommended; 1 oz to 32 oz but I would often cut out a few cc to make the tone go a touch more yellow for some weddings and slightly more cc's to go a touch more brown. Small adjustments.
#4. Mind your developer! You would think there would be little difference with what developer used but the formation of the image is key. More dilution and/or restrainer changes the tone and the look of the tone the print makes. Stock Dektol/D-72 at 1:1 is probably why you didn't see much change. Try Ilford Bromophen for pre-mixed (Agfa Neutol WA was ok too) or any 'Warm-Toned Print Developer" formula recipe usually with lots of Potassium Bromide added and more dilution than you think, more like 1:2 or 1:3 rather than 1:1, with long print development times (2-3 minutes). I would use the Zone VII timer that would speed up with higher temps and would have my print developer closer to 85-90F rather than 68F.
#5 Paper choice. I standardized on Ilford Warmtone Fiber, and any 'Warm-toned" paper would take toner well. I just was able to source Ilford products easier but AGFA Portriga was what I really learned how to tone with. Using stock RC paper usually gave toning results described by the OP.
Toning is a funny art. Doing massive amounts over the years gave me a lot of insight into the process, and sometimes random results would occur regardless of how perfect or consistent a process you kept. Keeping the tone going thru a whole wedding so that all prints match (or flow together) in the album or for the matted prints was a huge challenge, and prints that were printed and looked identical pre-toning sometimes would take the tone slightly differently.
The really difficult part is sourcing and delivery of the toner now...

Click to expand...

Riding Waves,

That is really extraordinary input. Thank you for taking the time to lay that all out.

I am embarrassed to say that I had completely forgotten about 'warm tone' developer, as I had only been using selenium which seems to do just fine in Sprint paper developer (advertised as "neutral" rather than warm or cold, FWIW).

I happened to have some Ilford Warmtone developer in my cabinet, so I am enlarging three sheets of 5x7 Art 300 to do a few things:

1. Try full polysulfide toning on one
2. Try partial polysulfide toning *followed by* [thanks, Matt] selenium
3. A full selenium toning, to see how that differs from my full-toning but using Sprint developer.

Also, I capped developing times at 75 seconds, as I am led to believe via other posts here that time-in-tray also impacts warmth of the result.

I've used Dektol 1:1 with reasonable results - but I also added a good dollop of P. Bromide to the developer. Bromide on its own gives a very nice subtle and even warm tone.

I bought some Ilford Art 300 and hated the finish. I gave the box to a fellow traveler on Photrio. I have no idea how it tones.

I use Ilford MGWT FB glossy. A few years ago I did a lith print project and toned them in PF polysulfide toner. It took 45 minutes to tone them uniformly. I worked out on the back porch because the smell was so bad. Loved the results though.

I tried Ilford Warmtone developer. Didn't see much difference from Ilford Multigrade developer with MGWT FB glossy.

Dusty Negative said:

I mixed up a batch of Photographers Formulary polysulfide toner -- first time attempting! Giddily, I dropped a mildly selenium toned print in the sauce, and gently agitated the tray whilst dreaming of the luscious brown mids and highlights which would undoubtedly complement the subtle red and aubergine in the darks. I agitated and waited, agitated and waited, for 20 minutes ...... and....... nothing. Well, the paper now looked dingy, but otherwise, no obvious change.

"No matter!" I loudly vocalized, launching an untoned print in a graceful arc ending in the toner. "Bring hither the luscious browns!" Twenty minutes later......... nothing. Well, the paper now looked dingy.

So, where would I even begin to trouble-shoot how I screwed this up? I have become moderately proficient with selenium -- I can control the tonalities from purple/aubergine on up to reddish brown on Ilford Art 300 paper (more-or-less the only paper I use these days). But, having never used anything other than selenium, I am simply not sure what "right" looks like. I am not clear if the solution is somehow bad or if I simply have unreasonable expectations of what this toner does.

Notes:

Ilford Art 300, well washed.
Photographers Formulary Polysulfide Toner, very freshly mixed at about 74 degrees Fahrenheit.
Toning time: 15-20 minutes.

Additionally: I wasn't able to completely dissolve all the solids of the Liver; there were hundreds of tiny little particles left after vigorously stirring for several minutes. The solution was, nonetheless, very yellowy-brown, with all of the large solids suitably dissolved.

I look forward to hearing thoughts on this. Thanks.

Click to expand...

You may want to invest in a heated magnetic stirrer to dissolve all componentscompletely.

RidingWaves said:

nothing quite like spending all week on printing only to have the whole batch of wedding prints get ruined by a toning mistake.

Click to expand...

After reading this, I will never complain about a print session of mine that was 12 or so prints that went bad. I can't even imagine what that felt like for you.

RalphLambrecht said:

You may want to invest in a heated magnetic stirrer to dissolve all componentscompletely.

Click to expand...

Good idea, Ralph.

faberryman said:

I have no idea how it tones.

Click to expand...

Didn't see much difference from Ilford Multigrade developer with MGWT FB glossy.

faberryman said:

I have no idea how it tones.

Click to expand...

Subtly. Wonderfully.

faberryman said:

I tried Ilford Warmtone developer. Didn't see much difference from Ilford Multigrade developer with MGWT FB glossy.

Click to expand...

I’ll look into that, for sure. More economical.

Update:

I developed in Ilford Warmtone developer prior to toning in polysulfide, and the results were those browns I was hoping for.

It's very interesting to me that selenium has a strong effect on Art 300 regardless of whether I use Warmtone or 'regular' developer, while the Warmtone is necessary for polysulfide.

Now, following that discovery, I went for broke and tried split toning (15 mins in polysulfide (first step) and 3 in selenium (second step)). This displayed no/no difference to the control print of just polysulfide. So, presumably, I toned it to completion in polysulfide, leaving insufficient unconverted metallic silver for the selenium to convert? If true, I would need to reduce the time in the polysulfide bath....but by how much, I wonder?

My, what an expensive hobby is this here photo-graphy.

Ha very well done, you got some results, some you desired and some that 'you learned from'.

One nice thing about toning in general is that in order to preserve some sanity for going thru all the effort you end up making a few extra prints, which means you end up toning more, which then gives you a chance to experiment and refine, (which should be the other word when describing "Toning") and then you learn. The extra prints make great gifts, and you'll have lots of them, so choose a popular and well-thought of image, since you'll be seeing it hanging on the gift recipient's wall and then you'll have ample time to ponder such things as dilution and bromide amounts.

The Refining is everything, really. Change anything in the chain and you'll get a different result when the print is dry. Yes even the stop bath; I made a change to Citric Acid and yup, prints don't match. Neither good nor bad nor totally different, but enough to make a pause or a hitch on the page turning. So, copious note taking, in case a client wanted "another" print "just like it" and then changing back to Indicator Stop Bath or whatever I was 'refining' at that point.

As for (one) of the monumental mistake, the whole and complete wedding package of vast amounts of fiber 8x10, 5x7's and 11x14s were unusable, the cause being traced after much consternation to a camera modification done near the darkroom and very fine iron dust had ever so lightly contaminated the whole area. The small iron dust would give a tiny yet distinct blue dot, and in contrast to the warm tones it stood out, (and sometimes in quite striking fashion). The iron did not have to be in the toner, but with any contact in any of the solutions or surface. Maddening, and it took my learning more about the chemistry to really tamp down a solution, which was a deep and full clean of the darkroom studio and washroom. Twice.

Toning was introduced to me, and the guy who showed me the ropes made a couple of comments that stuck with me; "A print ain't done unless it's toned","As everyone finds out, it seems Really Simple At First." and "Ya gotta figure it out for yourself". Finding all of those little tweaks; of the developer, the bromide level, the developer temp, the printing time, dilution, toner temp and time etc etc, makes the printing of your work uniquely your own.

I'm stoked and proud of my experience doing that level of printing *and* toning, at that time. The control, technique and artistic intent required to produce high quality consistently with toning is a real solid part of the true Art of Photography, and I honestly never thought I'd share what I've learned (previous post), but its good to find someone who appreciates it enough to ask a few good questions. Perhaps my hard learned lessons can be of help in the future.

Oh and capping development times at 75 might be capping some results you might find appealing; extended development time (by many means) is another control of the tone.

Blissful creating!

Developed, fixed and fully washed test strips are really handy to have around when you are experimenting with toning. If you are going to tone, don't discard or incompletely deal with the test strips you create.

RidingWaves said:

"Ya gotta figure it out for yourself".

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I'm living this statement currently. Now, if I can just make more time for all of this....

You might want to read the tests I did 5 years ago in this thread.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

You might want to read the tests I did 5 years ago in this thread.

Ian

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Pretty extraordinary thread. Thank you for the referral. One item that seemed not to be fully fleshed out in this excellent back-and-forth is whether one can replace "sulphide" toner, which is evidently sodium sulfide, with "polysulfide," which is evidently potassium sulfide, from the perspective of the permanence findings as well as timing and combination-with-selenium suggestions laid out in the thread.

Liver of Sulphur is a mixture of Potassium Sulphide, Potassium Polysulphide, Potassium Thiosulphate and Potassium Bisulphide. I don't have any so have not tested the differences in image colour. In terms of permanence there won't be any differences to Sodium Sulphide.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

In terms of permanence there won't be any differences to Sodium Sulphide.

Ian

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Thank you, Ian! That was my main concern.

Hi,

Polysulfide is what I have been using exclusively for almost 20 years. I was lucky to get 1 gallon of Kodak Polytoner and I'm today almost at the end.
The Moersch Siena Polysulfide is the closest from it.
Results are dramatic but the main reason is I do Lith. With regular dev it is much more subtle.

So my intake is from a Lith perspective.

1) Less is More.
The more you dilute Polytoner the stronger reaction you will get.
2) you can kill or enhance color.
It all depend on the print if it already has colors or not (Lith print).
Short time in toning will get you colors if your print doesn't have it.
Long time in toning will get you colors if your print already has some but you want to change the color spectrum.
Short time in toning will kill colors if your print already has some.
3) A lot happens in the wash...
So you need to keep in mind that what you see when you pull your print from the toner will change dramatically.
4) If you want even more response you can also bleach and tone like regular sepia toning which could be the case with regular dev.
5) Selenium first then Polysulfide (my regular workflow) makes also a lot of differences.

Polytoner is King !
Try the Moersch Siena.
G.

Guillaume Zuili said:

Hi,

Polysulfide is what I have been using exclusively for almost 20 years. I was lucky to get 1 gallon of Kodak Polytoner and I'm today almost at the end.
The Moersch Siena Polysulfide is the closest from it.
Results are dramatic but the main reason is I do Lith. With regular dev it is much more subtle.

So my intake is from a Lith perspective.

1) Less is More.
The more you dilute Polytoner the stronger reaction you will get.
2) you can kill or enhance color.
It all depend on the print if it already has colors or not (Lith print).
Short time in toning will get you colors if your print doesn't have it.
Long time in toning will get you colors if your print already has some but you want to change the color spectrum.
Short time in toning will kill colors if your print already has some.
3) A lot happens in the wash...
So you need to keep in mind that what you see when you pull your print from the toner will change dramatically.
4) If you want even more response you can also bleach and tone like regular sepia toning which could be the case with regular dev.
5) Selenium first then Polysulfide (my regular workflow) makes also a lot of differences.

Polytoner is King !
Try the Moersch Siena.
G.

Click to expand...

Thank you for that input. I have never Lith printed, so I cannot comment on that aspect. To clarify: you are toning after Lith printing?

Also: any comments on how the Moersch Siena compares to Photographers Formulary Polysulfide? That’s the only one I am familiar with.

Yes I tone after lith printing.
Selenium after the session then the day after I do the Polytoner.
I never used the Formulary toner so I cannot tell you how it behaves.
But the Moersch has one huge advantage. It comes in liquid and last forever.
To give you an idea, I use 20ml or 40ml in 4 liters. My times in the toner are between 4 and 10 minutes depending on papers.

Guillaume Zuili said:

Yes I tone after lith printing.

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Now that I think about it, that was one of those head-slapping questions.

On a saner note, you’ve intrigued me with the Moersch toner. I’ll give that a try when I run out of the Formulary one.

Guillaume Zuili said:

Yes I tone after lith printing.
Selenium after the session then the day after I do the Polytoner.
I never used the Formulary toner so I cannot tell you how it behaves.
But the Moersch has one huge advantage. It comes in liquid and last forever.
To give you an idea, I use 20ml or 40ml in 4 liters. My times in the toner are between 4 and 10 minutes depending on papers.

Click to expand...

Guillaume - I just checked Freestyle, and they list the product as "no longer manufactured." Are you aware of a 1+1 replacement?

Dusty Negative said:

Guillaume - I just checked Freestyle, and they list the product as "no longer manufactured." Are you aware of a 1+1 replacement?

Click to expand...

No it's still produced but not any more imported by Freestyle. I get it directly from Moersch in Germany. Shipping is pretty fast.