Mirror thickness on a KW Pilot 6 camera ??

Hi,
I want to buy a new mirror for a KW Pilot 6 camera. The seller on Ebay sells material in 1mm 1.3mm and 1.6mm. I don't have the old mirror out of the camera yet. I hope that someone here has done this before and can help.
Thank you!!
Robert
Robert Newcomb

I don't know specifically, but you probably should buy the 1.3mm, as it could easily be shimmed. If the 1.6mm mirror is thicker than the original mirror, it would be more difficult because you'd have to shim the GG.

Not sure about the thickness but erring on the thinner side sounds like good advice.

If you manage to fix the camera, it would be awesome if you could do a thread here to show it off (plus results) because the Pilot's are not so well documented and I think they're kinda neat!

Is this the seller you are talking to on Ebay?


He is knowledgeable about a large variety of cameras and differeing models. There are other sellers who don't know anywhere near as much as Martin.

Yes it is Marty. He said he though it is 1mm thick glass. I found my vernier caliper last night and am trying to relearn how to read it. Then, I guess I'll try and get to the mirror in one of my older and not so pretty cameras and measure the mirror thickness.

I have a couple of old german cameras. Usually they have 1 mm mirrors or 1.1mm as my Welta Perfektas https://www.120folder.com/welta_perfekta_mirror.htm. And, as said, in case of you can use shims. Just don't get the wrong side up, as I did first...

If there is a mistake to be made, I'll make it. Probably even invent some new ones.
Robert

rknewcomb said:

in 1mm 1.3mm and 1.6mm

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I don't think you will notice the 0.3 mm difference in focusing. I also suspect that manufacturing tolerances on the mirror holder to be about the same.

Is it a front surface mirror? Is the replacement mirror glass or plastic?

henryvk said:

If you manage to fix the camera, it would be awesome if you could do a thread here

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If you are fixing it yourself could you please describe the process?

I also have a Pilot 6 with degraded mirror and a KW Reflex Box with the same problem. Please post updates here. Looking forward to seing images taken with your Pilot 6.

I'll most likely be moving slowly on doing this as life and other things seem to get in the way but I will post progress and pictures here.
First I need to go to my storeroom and dig out one of the older less pretty Pilot 6 cameras as I don't want to practice on the pretty ones. From what I understand these cameras are not too difficult to work on...famous last words I'll bet.
Robert

rknewcomb said:

From what I understand these cameras are not too difficult to work on...famous last words I'll bet

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Their design is somewhat unique and the cameras are not very common. I shot a roll of film with KW Reflex Box. It was great fun but I doubt I will be using it for real.
My Pilot 6 is still on the shelf waiting for the mirror replacement. It is little point in using it as a viewfinder camera (focusing by scale). I have folders with better lenses for this.
There's some confusion about the frame size for Pilot 6. Mine is half-frame (4.5 x 6 cm) horizontal. Is yours the same? Some sources claim this is a 6x6 camera, I believe this is a mistake.

Some of the very early ones shot 6x4.5cm I think these had two red windows in the rear of the back. Some of the early ones shot 6x6cm for sure as I have a couple. I have not found an exact way to tell them apart from online pictures of these cameras. I usually ask the seller to confirm. I mostly switched my interest in them to the later Pilot 6 Super.
I plan to replace the mirror and change the focus screen to a modern one.
I guess the quality of the lens depends on what you're trying to do with it. If one looks at it as a nice little reflex Holga or at least embraces its limitations then that can be different. I've seen images made by these cameras online that look pretty nice.
Robert

rknewcomb said:

Some of the very early ones shot 6x4.5cm I think these had two red windows in the rear of the back. Some of the early ones shot 6x6cm for sure as I have a couple. I have not found an exact way to tell them apart from online pictures of these cameras. I usually ask the seller to confirm. I mostly switched my interest in them to the later Pilot 6 Super.
I plan to replace the mirror and change the focus screen to a modern one.
I guess the quality of the lens depends on what you're trying to do with it. If one looks at it as a nice little reflex Holga or at least embraces its limitations then that can be different. I've seen images made by these cameras online that look pretty nice.
Robert

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Thank you for this clarification. It is interesting that two red windows are so common on half-frame cameras. I checked the backing papers on Kodak Verichrome, Verichrome Pan, Super-XX, Agfa Isochrom, Ilford Selochrome and HP3 and they all have numbers for 16 half-frame exposures. Apparently, not all films had them when Pilot 6 was designed and it was safer to rely on 6x9 numbers.

I am a bit puzzled by the horizontal orientation of the frame. A square format in my opinion would be more convenient. Folding cameras usually have vertical orientation, but there orientation is not a problem as you can turn them left and right and upside-down if you want. I am not sure how one would shoot a portrait with Pilot 6. Probably, focus using the ground glass and then use the wire frame for framing.

As for the lens, I am quite happy with the f6.3 KW Reflex-Box Anastigmat on my KW Reflex Box and expect the 4.5 Anastigmat on my Pilot 6 to be of equal quality. I would not compare this lens to Holga, it is way better. It appears to be a triplet design which I like a lot. Faster and more expensive lenses could be of Tessar type and I believe this is the best you could get on Pilot 6 / Reflex-Box cameras.

I find camera shake to be a real problem with these cameras, which is a shame. If you have to use a tripod, you might as well get a folding plate camera and focus on the ground glass.

The information on these cameras is scarce and scattered. Can you recommend any reliable sources on early KW cameras? I saw books in German but they are out of print and seem to be difficult to find even in Germany.

I have an instruction manual for Pilot 6 and can send you a scan if you are interested. Though, you probably have several already.

Hi,

I have no great store of information on these cameras.

I have looked at some images on Flickr made by a Pilot 6 and they actually look pretty good. Many of the photos are not my type but otherwise the cameras seem capable of making decent images.

No, I don't have any instructions so that would be very nice.
Yes it is odd regarding a horizontal only 645 format and trying to do a vertical shot. The KW Pilot reflex is a twin lens camera they made that also has a horizontal only ground glass and a small optical finder on the side for verticals.

I haven't opened up the side of any of these cameras yet, but my understanding is that they are not too difficult to work on, at least easier than a "normal" shutter with gears and such. In this day when camera repair folks are retiring or overwhelmed with work I thought a small simple camera might be somewhat future proof.
I do have a few of these, in different stages of working or not working. Just a simple little camera that I've taken a shine to.
I don't have it yet, but I just recently found the 105mm portrait lens that KW made for this camera. Looking forward to rebuilding my camera and trying it out.
I have no instructional books either.
Robert