Minolta MC Rokkor-PG 58mm f/1.2 Lens Blocked from International Shipment -- any ideas?

AgX · Jun 22, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
Offer to sell it to him and then ship US Post. You have to fill out a declaration form at the post office. That should work and both of you will be happy.

Not necessarily. For instance german customs did/do not accept the US form for content declaration.

37th Exposure · Jul 2, 2020

AgX said:
Not necessarily. For instance german customs did/do not accept the US form for content declaration.

Please explain. Both the German and US posts use the standard Universal Postal Union forms. So your statement is wrong as far as I know. Please enlighten me.

AgX · Jul 2, 2020

I had an Ebay shipment from the USA of a common Canon FD lens by a private seller with a 100% truly filled out USPS customs declaration. I was called to the german customs office where I had to open the parcel. The content was identical to what was stated in the form. But still german customs refrained from handing over the parcel, as they said that it lacked the required invoice inside the parcel. Never ever heard of such regulation. I explained that such would contain exactly the same data as shown on the form outside, except for the added term "invoice". No, the officer insisted on that invoice and gave me 5 days to present it. Of course the seller did not react on my request to send an invoice. Inspite of several visits during these days to the customs office, the parcel finally was due to be sent on my costs back to the USA, resulting in a total loss plus added two times shipping.
Sheer madness...

The respective customs office was located in a small 19th century harbour warehouse. The private shipments located in a small chickenwire cage in a dark filthy attic with birds flying along.... And only about 20 parcels, for a region of at least 1/2 million people....

But that is not the only mad encounter I had with german customs, threatened with totall loss of the goods.

37th Exposure · Jul 3, 2020

AgX said:
I had an Ebay shipment from the USA of a common Canon FD lens by a private seller with a 100% truly filled out USPS customs declaration. I was called to the german customs office where I had to open the parcel. The content was identical to what was stated in the form. But still german customs refrained from handing over the parcel, as they said that it lacked the required invoice inside the parcel. Never ever heard of such regulation. I explained that such would contain exactly the same data as shown on the form outside, except for the added term "invoice". No, the officer insisted on that invoice and gave me 5 days to present it. Of course the seller did not react on my request to send an invoice. Inspite of several visits during these days to the customs office, the parcel finally was due to be sent on my costs back to the USA, resulting in a total loss plus added two times shipping.
Sheer madness...

The respective customs office was located in a small 19th century harbour warehouse. The private shipments located in a small chickenwire cage in a dark filthy attic with birds flying along.... And only about 20 parcels, for a region of at least 1/2 million people....

But that is not the only mad encounter I had with german customs, threatened with totall loss of the goods.

Wow!!! That's news to me. Of all the customs troubles I've heard of, that is one I've yet to hear. I do a lot of international shipping myself, though not photography related. Your story got my interest so I looked at the USPS website and it looks like yours was not a postal issue but a customs one. It says that German authorities require an additional invoice IN ADDITION TO the postal one in case of commercial shipments or personal shipments of US$300 or more. It says "Priority Mail" but I assume it applies to all parcels of any class. You can see for yourself at usps.com. Go to the bottom of the page and look for Postal Explorer, then International Mail Manual or IMM, then Individual Country Listings and find Germany. I checked some other countries at random and some have this same silly requirement while others do not. This may or may not have anything to do with USPS as the customs information is generally provided by the specific country. To be safe, I would assume all parcels to Germany from anywhere require the "Invoice". As for the form numbers, the 2976 corresponds to UPU form CN22, the 2976A is the CP72, and the 2976B is similar but for EMS which falls under a different UPU category. Virtually all the worlds' posts use the UPU forms.

MattKing · Jul 3, 2020

I don't believe that the customs form is an invoice - it is a declaration of value.
Customs people generally have the right to enquire about whether a declaration of value is an accurate representation of the value for duty and tax calculation purposes.
An invoice provides supporting evidence for that value, but even invoices can be challenged.
I remember buying a print from another APUG member at a favourable price. When I went to import it, the Canadian customs officers actually searched the photographer's website to determine the normal valuation for his prints. As I was able to share copies of our correspondence leading up to the purchase, they were satisfied that my declaration of value matched the price I actually paid.

AgX · Jul 3, 2020

MattKing said:
An invoice provides supporting evidence for that value, but even invoices can be challenged.

A invoice by a private seller has no more information value than the customs form on the outside. Except for the term "invoice".

In my case it was a common lens. In case the officer assummed a fraud, 10sec of googling would have showed him that the price on the customs form was identical to the average US Ebay price of that lens. End of story. (By the way, it was a 150Euro item)
As a good citizen I am willing to pay VAT on both the good and shipping cost and was prepared to do so, as of course I calculated that in. However I do not understand why one is gaggled by authorities to the verge of loosing a lot of money.
In this case at the last day the offcer accepted a bank document of mine stating me to have transferred a sum the same as on the customs form to Pay-pal.

In another case, a large parcel full of old, but mint (60 years old publisher warehouse stock) technical books from the USA, german customs lost or held the parcel 3 months! at Bremerhaven customs without informing me or the local customs offce. So that I and the sender considerd the parcel lost and I already ordered other copies of those books. When the parcel arrived it had been opened but not taped again so all books were sticking out.... I am not willing to take that authorities may handle goods that bad and still are able to put losses at the risk of the citizen.

GRHazelton · Jul 3, 2020

My understanding is that thoriated lenses' radiation level is so low as to be inconsequential. I suppose that if you removed the "hot" element and ingested it or taped it to your body there might be a problem toward the end of your life - maybe! Since the radiation level falls off in proportion to the square of the distance, IIRC, the spacing of the lens via its mounting to a camera body should make the radiation level next to nothing. Consider the "excess" radiation exposure from flying at 30,000 feet or from dental x-rays and people worry about "hot" lenses?
Customs foolishness: I bought a case for my Minolta Autocord from a gentleman in Russia. American customs held it up for several weeks. Why, I don't know. Maybe it was radioactive?

MattKing · Jul 3, 2020

AgX said:
A invoice by a private seller has no more information value than the customs form on the outside. Except for the term "invoice".

Understood, but you were still dealing with a government office - the sort who often only look for what they expect to find.
Many decades ago I worked as a customs officer. While I was relatively young and willing to be creative, some of my coworkers ......
This is one of the reasons why when I buy something from someone outside of Canada I insist on them issuing a PayPal invoice to me.

AgX · Jul 3, 2020

That paypal invoice makes sense. The problem in my case was that the officer neither sad that he assumed fraud, so that one could argue on that, nor reacted on my arguments or proposals.
Anyway those encounters made me rfrain on buying from outside the EU unless there is no other channce at all.

But we should not overlook that customs not only is lurking at postal stations, but at borders too. Another source for craziness....

37th Exposure · Jul 4, 2020

So what is in an invoice that differs from what is on a customs declaration? Couldn't a scammer just print up a fake? Or AgX could have just made one up at home to show the customs officer? I would have thought that what you'd put on the postal form can be verified if they really wanted to or why bother filling it out. As a government employee, I should have known that common sense rarely makes it into play.

MattKing · Jul 4, 2020

37th Exposure said:
So what is in an invoice that differs from what is on a customs declaration? Couldn't a scammer just print up a fake? Or AgX could have just made one up at home to show the customs officer? I would have thought that what you'd put on the postal form can be verified if they really wanted to or why bother filling it out. As a government employee, I should have known that common sense rarely makes it into play.

An invoice is evidence of an enforceable bargain, which involves at least two parties - the importer and the exporter.
A customs declaration is completed by the exporter without any involvement by the importer, even though the importer is the one liable to pay the duties and taxes.
I have purchased and imported items from individuals who, without discussion or request from me, under-valued the items on the customs declaration.
They probably thought they were doing me a favour - not!
That is one of the reasons I prefer to have US purchases shipped to a nearby US address. I am able to ensure that a correct value is declared at the time I import them to Canada.

iggybug · Jul 16, 2020

In case anyone is curious, I worked with my original buyer in Australia to complete the sale outside of eBay.

I shipped the lens (but wrapped it in tinfoil first as it couldn't hurt and might possibly help) through a different postal service. It arrived safely, although it did take quite a bit of time to get to its final destination.

My lesson learned: I'm not going to try to sell any thorium-glass lenses internationally anymore.

flavio81 · Jul 16, 2020

iggybug said:
Given the prevalence of thorium coatings

Paul Howell said:
By the way, only the early lens have the thorum coating.

Just an observation:

There isn't such a thing as "thorium coating". Some camera lenses were made with glass containing thorium (or other elements that can exhibit radioactivity).

iggybug · Jul 16, 2020

@flavio81 Yeah, I noticed that in research after my original post. 100% correct!

Minolta MC Rokkor-PG 58mm f/1.2 Lens Blocked from International Shipment -- any ideas?

AgX

37th Exposure

AgX

37th Exposure

MattKing

Moderator

AgX

GRHazelton

MattKing

Moderator

AgX

37th Exposure

MattKing

Moderator

iggybug

flavio81

iggybug

Minolta MC Rokkor-PG 58mm f/1.2 Lens Blocked from International Shipment -- any ideas?

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency