Minolta Autocord shutter cleaning/libricating

[River Mantis]

While disassembling Minolta Autocord for basic CLA I accidentally unscrewed the sync contact nut and the contact had fallen inside the shutter assembly so I needed to open it. And while it's opened what else can I do with it? It is working but wasn't serviced for a very long time. So I need basic tips. I can leave it as is or I guess I can take major blocks out, clean (I'd do it by dipping them in a light gasoline) and relubricate them.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

The best advice on a CLA is "If it isn't broken then don't fix it." And its corollary: "If you fix something long enough you will really break it."

If the speeds all seem correct then just extract the loose bit and leave well enough alone. Shutters are famous for going sproing and throwing springs across the room, never to be seen again.

If the low speeds are hanging then it may be possible to remove just the slow speed escapement and clean it with Ronsonol. If you are not using the camera in a heavy professional capacity - a dozen rolls a day shot with slow shutter speeds - then I would let the escapement run dry, it won't hurt it and it won't gum up through lack of use.

This is the voice of sad experience talking.

Other sage advice: Work on a large fluffy white towel to keep things from rolling off the bench, hitting the floor and then bouncing off into the odd corner.

 

[shutterfinger]

(I'd do it by dipping them in a light gasoline

What is light gasoline? Naphtha?
One of these service manuals https://learncamerarepair.com/product.php?product=948&category=2&secondary=35
https://learncamerarepair.com/product.php?product=691&category=2&secondary=22
https://pheugo.com/cameras/index.php?page=seikosha may be of help.
TLR's use a 00 shutter. 00 shutters are usually very similar to the #0 shutter.
Use the light gasoline on all metal parts only.
90% Isopropyl Alcohol is a good parts cleaner and will not damage non metal parts.
Use a light machine oil such as clock oil sparingly on pivots of gears and similar.
Take good pictures as you disassemble for reassembly reference.
There are some recent posts on the Autocord and Seiko shutters in this section and the Camera Repair section.

 

[River Mantis]

What is light gasoline? Naphtha?

It comes in different shapes. The one that quickly evaporates living no residue. I use lighter fluid or automobile brake cleaner for mechanical parts. They perform identically. Even the smell is the same.

 

[shutterfinger]

Shade tree mechanic solvents.

 

[Dan Daniel]

First thing: what model shutter is it? Some have a cocking ring which can be difficult to get out and in. Some models need the escapement moved to adjust slow speeds. Some have a stop for the pallet that is bent to adjust speed.

Alcohol is somewhat hydrophilic. It may evaporate quickly and cleanly but it may also be a way to introduce water into tight areas. Whatever you use for a cleaner, be very very sparing. Wipe, don't flood.

 

[Konical]

Good Evening, River Mantis,
Send it to Karl Bryan in Oregon.
Konical

 

[River Mantis]

First thing: what model shutter is it? Some have a cocking ring which can be difficult to get out and in. Some models need the escapement moved to adjust slow speeds. Some have a stop for the pallet that is bent to adjust speed.

Alcohol is somewhat hydrophilic. It may evaporate quickly and cleanly but it may also be a way to introduce water into tight areas. Whatever you use for a cleaner, be very very sparing. Wipe, don't flood.

It has Citizen name on it. I had no problem disassembling and reassembling it anyway. I basically asked for some very general tips. So I think I won't do much harm by simplify cleaning and gently oiling it.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Great. Cleaning and spare oil is about all that is needed. The less oil the better, all in all.

If it has a self-timer, be attentive in reassembly.

 

[gone]

While you're at it, make sure those shutter blades are completely clean. Often, I've found out that the shutter itself worked fine but the blades were sticky, even though they looked clean. Lighter fluid has always worked for me to clean them up, gotta use a ton of Q-tips. One wipe, throw it away, use another one, like that.

I've done a lil research in this, used to work for OSHA and the EPA specifically on toxic and hazardous chemicals and materials, nothing we uncovered pointed to any build up left behind by lighter fluid. It evaporates 100%, there is no residue left behind. Still, give things you can get to a wipe w/ a clean Q-tip repeatedly. Just because.

Make sure you're buying lighter fluid too, not what you use to get a BBQ going, that's not the same thing.

 

[Dan Daniel]

It has Citizen name on it.

[Most Autocord shutters will have 'Citizen' on the shutter block itself. Including the ones which are labeled Optiper and Seikosha on the lens shroud exterior. The cameras with 'Seikosha' on the lens shroud have a shutter design similar to Compurs, with a cocking rack around the lens tube.]

I've done a lil research in this, used to work for OSHA and the EPA specifically on toxic and hazardous chemicals and materials, nothing we uncovered pointed to any build up left behind by lighter fluid. It evaporates 100%, there is no residue left behind. Still, give things you can get to a wipe w/ a clean Q-tip repeatedly. Just because.

Make sure you're buying lighter fluid too, not what you use to get a BBQ going, that's not the same thing.

Interesting to hear your research on naphtha. Matches my experience in cleaning, etc. Straight naphtha VM&P from the paint section hasn't given me problems.

Another commonly available source of naphtha is 'white gas' for camping stoves and such. Coleman is the most common brand. If you put some Coleman fuel in a clear jar, you'll see that it has a slight bluish tint. Supposedly they add a small bit of a lubricant so that the valves and needles stay movable. I wonder if this has also led to the idea that naphtha leaves a residue.

 

[BrianShaw]

My experience is similar on naphtha and lighter fluid. I think the residue concern is when used to flush without actually cleaning with, for example, q-tips. Coleman fuel is useful grease buster but not for final cleaning…

 

[RalphLambrecht]

While disassembling Minolta Autocord for basic CLA I accidentally unscrewed the sync contact nut and the contact had fallen inside the shutter assembly so I needed to open it. And while it's opened what else can I do with it? It is working but wasn't serviced for a very long time. So I need basic tips. I can leave it as is or I guess I can take major blocks out, clean (I'd do it by dipping them in a light gasoline) and relubricate them.

shutter do not require lubrication.They are designed to run dry;In fact lubrication actually hurts them because, oils and grease harden over time, which can freeze shutter action completely.

 

[BrianShaw]

shutter do not require lubrication.They are designed to run dry;In fact lubrication actually hurts them because, oils and grease harden over time, which can freeze shutter action completely.

Utter nonsense. Most have detailed lubrication specifications. This rumor seems to have started from a USER MANUAL that advises USERS to “do not lubricate shutter”… not a repair manual. If memory serves correctly, that statement was followed by instruction to send shutter to manufacturer if repair is needed.

Please forgive my bluntness.

 

[Dan Daniel]

shutter do not require lubrication.They are designed to run dry;In fact lubrication actually hurts them because, oils and grease harden over time, which can freeze shutter action completely.

Not sure where this idea comes from, as an absolute. You are right, many shutters are designed to run dry, but not all. I will post this manual for Synchro-Compur shutters and direct people's attention to section 4-3 (p.22, starting near bottom) titled 'Lubricating Instructions.' I doubt that Honeywell, the importer of Rolleiflexes for a period of time, was determined to provide information that would cause shutters to malfunction.

https://learncamerarepair.com/downloads/pdf/synchro-compur-service.pdf

Recommendation if you do not know if a shutter should be lubricated: clean thoroughly, assemble dry. If it doesn't function, start lubricating specific spots based on interfaces and working from the 'outside' in (e.g., a cocking rack is 'farthest' from the shutter blades, escapement next, then the mechanism that actually opens and closes the blades). Use pins or very small brushes Simple rule- if it is under pressure, grease. If it is spinning, oil. Apply only at contact points, then wipe away. You'd be amazed how much grease or oil remains after you wipe a part down with a cotton swab or clothe. And if none of this works, time to break it open and get to the actual blades and the blade ring and pathway. Which should almost always be left clean and dry (Kodak shutters recommend grease in this area, but be very light and wipe 'clean').

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Utter nonsense. Most have detailed lubrication specifications. This rumor seems to have started from a USER MANUAL that advises USERS to “do not lubricate shutter”… not a repair manual. If memory serves correctly, that statement was followed by instruction to send shutter to manufacturer if repair is needed.

Please forgive my bluntness.

I have this advise from the Nijon service center in Germany(Hamburg, Norderstedt) they apparently spent ore time on washing out old lubicantthan on any other repair.

 

[BrianShaw]

I have this advise from the Nijon service center in Germany(Hamburg, Norderstedt) they apparently spent ore time on washing out old lubicantthan on any other repair.

The devil is in the details. They could not possibly have meant no lubrication at all or that as generic recommendation. That just isn’t supported by manufacturer specifications or elementary engineering.

All old lubricant needs to be cleaned out when servicing mechanical clockwork. Excess lubrication or improper lubricants, from poor prior workmanship, makes that task more difficult. All lubricants eventually break down or migrate to the wrong places.

Even jeweled bearings are specified to be lubricated. That’s how critical lubrication is in a clockwork mechanism.

Unfortunately, internet “telephone game” and lack of basic knowledge of the “clockwork repair craft” has lead to the repeating of erroneous information.

 

[Dan Daniel]

I have this advise from the Nijon service center in Germany(Hamburg, Norderstedt) they apparently spent ore time on washing out old lubicantthan on any other repair.

I pity camera service center people. What they must see when they open up cameras. As momus mentions above, shutter blades are often coated in dried oil or grease and can take a bit to get clean. And that film came from somewhere! Oil migrates, grease decomposes and turns into 'soap' and oil. All dry out, but maybe vaporize first and move throughout the mechanism.

Something like the Synchro-Compur manual I linked to above is assuming that you are starting with clean parts. And that you are using lubes that are appropriate for such mechanisms if/when you do apply lubrication.

I think we should remember that when manuals like the Synchro-Compur one were written, it was assumed that the cameras being serviced were used by professionals. Cameras were used, constantly. And cameras were serviced, regularly. They were tools that needed to be maintained. Most mechanical cameras these days are used by hobbyists and aficionados, not people shooting dozens of rolls a week.

 

[shutterfinger]

From https://learncamerarepair.com/product.php?product=86&category=2&secondary=21 Prontor S, Sv, SVX Repair manual.

Well, many Prontor shutters are in the scrap pile as they wore out due to lack of lubrication. Ilex shutters were also designed to run dry.
This was fine straight from the factory but 50+ years later a trace of oil and grease on pivots and sliding metal to metal parts and some springs makes for a smoother and quieter running shutter.

 

[BrianShaw]

Prontor was extremely conservative and oil averse. I’m not particularly in agreement but who cares if I agree. To be fair, though, in the following paragraph they provide guidance for their approved use of grease. So even Prontor shutters aren’t intended to be run completely dry when they were new.

 

[BrianShaw]

From another Prontor service manual, their philosophy is explained in a bit more detail. Could this be to address "repair hacks" who might be tempted to just add oil rather than doing a proper repair?

 

[GRHazelton]

I pity camera service center people. What they must see when they open up cameras. As momus mentions above, shutter blades are often coated in dried oil or grease and can take a bit to get clean. And that film came from somewhere! Oil migrates, grease decomposes and turns into 'soap' and oil. All dry out, but maybe vaporize first and move throughout the mechanism.

Something like the Synchro-Compur manual I linked to above is assuming that you are starting with clean parts. And that you are using lubes that are appropriate for such mechanisms if/when you do apply lubrication.

I think we should remember that when manuals like the Synchro-Compur one were written, it was assumed that the cameras being serviced were used by professionals. Cameras were used, constantly. And cameras were serviced, regularly. They were tools that needed to be maintained. Most mechanical cameras these days are used by hobbyists and aficionados, not people shooting dozens of rolls a week.

Dan Daniels is well qualified to comment on the Autocords. I have an Autocord which he'd serviced; it is the one with the selenium meter, WHICH WORKS! although I find its use inconvenient. My Autocord looks as though it had sat in a dealer's display case since it was new. Everything works smoothly. I really like the ergonomics of the Autocord, I prefer it to my YashicaMat or my Ikoflex.

 

[shutterfinger]

I have a pile of Prontors I bought for little off ebay to service and resell. All are scrap. 10% are usable.
About 25% of the Compurs were non repairable.
Wollensak, Ilex, Copal, all repaired to usable to like new.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

From https://learncamerarepair.com/product.php?product=86&category=2&secondary=21 Prontor S, Sv, SVX Repair manual.
View attachment 291967
Well, many Prontor shutters are in the scrap pile as they wore out due to lack of lubrication. Ilex shutters were also designed to run dry.
This was fine straight from the factory but 50+ years later a trace of oil and grease on pivots and sliding metal to metal parts and some springs makes for a smoother and quieter running shutter.

I read this as : don't lubricate;it will run dry just fine! similar to removing light sealsBTW; light traps work better and can't fail.

 

[BrianShaw]

I have a pile of Prontors I bought for little off ebay to service and resell. All are scrap. 10% are usable.
About 25% of the Compurs were non repairable.
Wollensak, Ilex, Copal, all repaired to usable to like new.

Well this certainly speaks to the perils of building a shutter like an alarm clock rather than a Swiss watch and “lifetime lubrication”!