Microtek i800 and dynamic range

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couldabin

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Does anyone have experience with this scanner? I just bought one, and using ScanMagic Pro 7.x I tried altering the dynamic range while scanning 4x5 B/W negative, but find it appears to change nothing. I turned off contrast adjustment, just in case that was overriding the manual setting.

Am I overlooking something or does the driver/utility really not let you change the dynamic range? (FWIW, the scan is actually pretty close; still, I'd like to be able to control the brightness assigned to DMax/DMin.)
 

tom_micklin

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Does anyone have experience with this scanner? I just bought one, and using ScanMagic Pro 7.x I tried altering the dynamic range while scanning 4x5 B/W negative, but find it appears to change nothing. I turned off contrast adjustment, just in case that was overriding the manual setting.

Am I overlooking something or does the driver/utility really not let you change the dynamic range? (FWIW, the scan is actually pretty close; still, I'd like to be able to control the brightness assigned to DMax/DMin.)

I've had that scanner for about a year and love it.
I had an unusually long adjustment period with it and didn't really get the controls I wanted until I installed the Silver Fast version that I purchased separately, so it may be possible that there are default settings in conflict with ScanMagic.
Good luck,
Tom
 
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couldabin

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That's what I was afraid of. It is really true that the manufacturer doesn't provide software that works?
 

Ted Harris

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epIn the case of both Epson and Microtek scanners the manufacturers' software works but Silverfast Ai works much much better ... that is why they both bundle it with their "pro" versions. In terms of the OP's original question I am not sure what you are doing regarding dynamic range. If I correctly understand what you are trying to do you can easily alter the dynamic range of any negativ by resetting the white and black point which you can do easily with the Microtek software but make sure you ahve it set to use the manual settings.
 
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couldabin

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Ted, thanks for your response. It's certainly possible that my issue is operator error on my part ...

Yes, I'm trying to set the output density of DMax and DMin. The Dynamic Range histogram has the usual sliders to do that, but resetting them does not change the final scan. I did make sure that automatic contrast is disabled.

I'm using the latest version of ScanWizard Pro ...

TIA
 

Ted Harris

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That's not the best tool to use .... you want to use the white point/black point tool (see page 85 in your manual ... or about there if you are using Window as that is the OSX page number) you want to use the two eye droppers to set the points NOT the histogram sliders. I can email you a slide from a presentation we use in our Scanning Workshops that also shows what I mean for both Mac and PC if the manual page isn't enough. You can download the manual fromMicrotek if you don't have it.

A tiny bit of blatant self promotion here .... you might want to consider one of our workshops sometime. See my announcement of the latest in the workshops section on this Forum.
 
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couldabin

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Ted, I'd like to take a look at those slides. I had assumed the Dynamic Range tool was the one I needed to use. I'll PM you with my email address ...
 
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couldabin

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OK, so much for operator error. I had asked here whether anyone had any insights into getting the Microtek i800 let you set DMax/DMin using the Dynamic Range histogram. The software certainly appears to give you that control; scans aren't changed by the manual settings, however.

So I asked the manufacturer. Got the response today:

I have done some testing and also asked around and found that the Scan
Wizard Pro and the scanner itself doesn't support changing d-range setting
on Gray Scale Negatives.

The scanner itself? Is it unreasonable to ask that basic features in the manufacturer's software actually work?
 

Ted Harris

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OK, so much for operator error. I had asked here whether anyone had any insights into getting the Microtek i800 let you set DMax/DMin using the Dynamic Range histogram. The software certainly appears to give you that control; scans aren't changed by the manual settings, however.

So I asked the manufacturer. Got the response today:

I have done some testing and also asked around and found that the Scan
Wizard Pro and the scanner itself doesn't support changing d-range setting
on Gray Scale Negatives.

The scanner itself? Is it unreasonable to ask that basic features in the manufacturer's software actually work?

1) I'm not at all sure that is correct.

2) Can you please send me a copy of the email you got? I want to see who sent it!

3) I tried to email you and it bounced back so I am posting the image here ... you use the two eyedroppers to set the white and black points .... see ethem under the thumbnails at the right?
 

jd callow

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Is there possibly a mis understanding of terms here? In scanners Dmax is generally linked to channel depth as in 8,12 or 16 bits per channel. To increase or decrease the Dmax one would choose a higher or lower bit depth. Setting the tonal range or contrast range would be done as Ted suggests. In this instance I'm not sure that dynamic range is directly equivalent to contrast range. I might suggest that you scan the image where the histogram is completely within the highlight and shadow extremes and use photoshop or the application of your choice to adjust the levels/histogram for overall contrast and a curve tool to adjust local contrast. I would also suggest that you do identical scans at different bit depths and see if the histogram becomes more sparse under lower bit depths. Finally, you can, assuming this scanner will allow it and if it actually does what is says its doing, scan at multiple exposures and see if you are capturing more shadow detail or highlight detail in the appropriate exposure.
 
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couldabin

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JD, it could well be that terminology isn't always being used accurately. Let me try to rephrase this, because even though this horse that we're flogging is nearly dead, I do think there's an underlying issuethat is important: shouldn't we expect vendors to deliver what they promise and what can we do if they don't?

In a nutshell, I want to control the output density range of the B/W 4x5 negs I am scanning. Shadow density on the negative goes all the way to the base emulsion; highlight density on the negative goes to, according to the histogram, about 1.8. I'd like to have that represent something short of pure white so I use the manual mode and set the slider so that the white point correlates to, say, 2.2.

Here's the rub: that doesn't change the white point. If I choose the full scale option (rather than choosing manual), the scan does indeed put the densest highlight somewhere short of pure white (I've not taken the time to calculate whether it's actually placing it at the correct value). If I choose the auto option, it does indeed render 1.8D as pure white.

Incidently, the software does appear to respond properly when the medium is color, not B/W.

I appreciate the workarounds (and the most effective I've found so far is to scan it as a color positive, then use Photoshop to render it properly). And I appreciate the observations that there are "better" ways to get good results. But shouldn't the tools work as promised? Shouldn't a user be able to place the output density as desired? If the Dynamic Range feature doesn't work properly, let's just acknowledge it and find out from Microtek what it plans to do about it.

Or am I misunderstanding something here?
 

jd callow

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"Or am I misunderstanding something here?"
not from where I'm sitting. Dmax as measured by a densitometer and Dmax as stated by the manufacturers of scanners should be one in the same. Sadly they are not. Microtek claimed a Dmax of of 3.6 or 4.2 or some other outstanding number for the 1800f. When I got my hands on the scanner the actual Dmax was in the low 2s (maybe 2.2 or 2.3 I don't remember). Meaning the scanner stopped gathering data well shy of its advertised potential, but in excess of most people's needs. The formula Microtek (and epson, umax, et al) used to determine dmax is one based upon theory not practical application. Most photographer's are interested in practical application.

A long time ago I resigned myself to the fact that the scanner was an excellent input tool, but not the best tool for achieving colour balance, proper density or contrast.
 
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couldabin

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I've had others, who also know much more about the technical end of this than I do, say exactly the same thing about the accuracy of the Dvalue reported by scanners such as the i800. It's unfortunate that the manufacturer isn't more interested in providing the best information available. I doubt the hardware/software is unable to compute Dvalue more accurately; I suspect the vendor is tarting up the numbers.

However, I'm more disturbed that the software package they offer doesn't really work as presented. For my money, that's a pretty serious misreprestation, also.
 

Ted Harris

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Hype, hype, hype .... both the resolution and the DMax specifications for all the prosumer/consumer scanners are just that .... marketing hype. The best we have ever gotten out of any of them using a Stouffer Step Wedge is a DMax of ~ 2.5 and that is for the Microtek 1800f. All the Epsons deliver in the range of ~ 2.2-2.3 and the Microtek i800 and i900 just a hair better than the Epsons. Like megapixels in the digital camera world, these are the number s that sell the scanners to the average consumer so they hype 'em like crazy in their marketing.

If you want DMax that gets up into the high 3's then you need to go up to one of the high end scanners.

JD -- slight disagreement, the higher DMax will make a difference in larger prints and with transparency film such as Velvia where you can potentially get a lot of deep shadow detail that will not be revealed with the prosumer scanners ...
 

jd callow

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JD -- slight disagreement, the higher DMax will make a difference in larger prints and with transparency film such as Velvia where you can potentially get a lot of deep shadow detail that will not be revealed with the prosumer scanners ...

No disagreement here. I was wrong if I said otherwise.
 

Helen B

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... The best we have ever gotten out of any of them using a Stouffer Step Wedge is a DMax of ~ 2.5 and that is for the Microtek 1800f. All the Epsons deliver in the range of ~ 2.2-2.3 and the Microtek i800 and i900 just a hair better than the Epsons...

If that is all they can manage they must have difficulty scanning the full density range of colour negatives, never mind Velvia and Kodachrome.
 

Ted Harris

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Helen, they do have difficulty but it is not usually "percepually apparent" in prints smaller than 16x20 .... what I simply mean is that I see it, you would see it but many who print from these scans don't see it, don't care, or, have never seen what you get from a high end scanner.
 
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