Hey, I recall that in the movie ALIENS, the robot-thingy made a handheld device to locate the aliens by identifying micro chances in air density. Apparently when aliens crawl along they screw up air density.Tom Hoskinson said:Can anyone identify a microdensitomery instrument (or alternative) which has the right spectral response coupled with the requisite spatial resolution to quantify changes in microdensity?
Any recommendations?
Photo Engineer said:Has anyone considered the fact that with the decrease in analog film sales, some of the photo manufacturers may have some surplus equipment that they would sell for a song? It may even be possible to get them to donate it if the cause could be shown to be worthy.
I know that a lot of old eqipment that is out of vogue and no longer used is often scrapped outright, so why not try to get one. Kodak used to maintain a salvage yard where you could buy old junk as scrap. Maybe something like that could be arranged with Kodak or any of the other companies.
Well, just a thought.
PE
mikewhi said:Do you think that could be adapted to suit your needs?
Kirk Keyes said:OK - Here's my initial thoughts on the subject. (I love instrument and analysis design, by the way.)
I see two basic approaches. One can either:
1) make something, or
2) adapt existing equipement.
With that in mind, let's look at Option 1. Going with Patrick's excellent suggestion of using silicon phototransistor would be the first step. Some method would be needed to convert the voltage signal from the op amp into something usable, i.e. a volt meter at the least.
1.a) Adding on to the phototransistor idea, some sort of an optic path would be needed to isolate and focus on a small section of a negative. And a light source as well. And finally, some sort of mechanism like a micrometer to move the negative.
For this approach, probably basing the design off of traditional microdensitometers would be best. That means a microscope-like type of optics would be needed.
This may be a lot of work. Data collection from the volt meter and then conversion to density readings could be painful for the number of readings that would be needed.
Perhaps easier, would be:
1.b) Keep the negative in a fixed location, and move the sensor. Some sort of mechanism could be used to move the sensor under a projected image of the neg. Using an enlarger (which most of us already have) to focus and project the image onto the baseboard, a baseboard densitometer like the phototransistor/volt meter combo or perhaps easier, something like on of the old Minolta PM densitometers could be used. The PM (or other baseboard meter) would be direct reading in density, so that would simplify the conversion of voltage readings in to density.
Things to keep in mind with this approach:
1.b.1) Move the enlarger up as high as it goes to increase the image size, as well as using a shrt focal length lens to increase the amount of magnification at the baseboard. (We don't need the lens to cover the entire neg, just something that will project a sharp and contrasty portion of the negative.)
1.b.2) Mask the opening of the sensor to get a smaller aperature to further increase the effective magnification. Ideally, the size of the aperature should be somewhere around the step size of the linear distance that the sensor will be moved.
1.b.3) Use a set threaded rods (i.e. long screws) to make a "sled" for the sensor to sit on, and then a "dial" could be added so that fine turns of the rod could be measured. A 1 mm pitch rod being turned 15 degrees per step would be 1/24th of a mm increments. Multiple by the baseboard magnification to get the actual step sizes on the negative.
1.b.4) Use of the color filters of the Minolta PM (or other) baseboard densitometer unit could be used to isolate color/stain effects.
For Approach 2 - using existing equipment, off hand, I can think of:
2.a) find a microdensitometer of some commercial equipment that is similar in function. If actual microdensitometers were easy to come by and cheap, we would not be having this thread...
But I think Tom has a good approach - use a microscope with a digital cameral and take images of the film. I spent about 2 hours trying this one afternoon at a friend's house who is a microscopist. He had a nice Zeiss scope and a digital camera that is designed for use with the scope. I had issues with getting enough magnification while still keeping the image sharp. The contrast was not what I was hoping for as well. And then I had problems getting the image bright enough to shoot with the camera. (I burned a few holes in the test neg a could of times before I figured out how to not do that!)
But I think this idea has a lot of merit. But it is not a cheap solution for those of us that do not have access to expensive scopes and digital cameras. So on to the next idea:
2.b) Film Scanners - I think this apporach should be a good one, and since many of us already have scanners, then that is one big hurdle down as far as the equipment side of this problem goes.
2.b.1) Resolution - I have a Nikon Coolscan V that can do 4000 dpi. That's about 157 points per mm. Looking in James and Mees' microdensity plots, that looks like it should be sufficient, if not just what is needed. Even though that scanner only does 35 mm format, cutting negs up to feed it should not be a issue.
2.b.2) Data Collection - another big plus for the scanner, simply scan the film. Once the scan is in the computer, then we can use software to get the density readings.
Take a look at this page: http://www.efg2.com/Lab/ImageProcessing/TestTargets/ (this will be useful for our next big project on how to test for resolution!) and then notice the graphs at the bottom of that page - they used the software that can be found here: http://www.efg2.com/Lab/ImageProcessing/PixelProfile.htm
I've played with the Pixel profile software and it is pretty simple and easy. Bring a picture into it, drawn a line across the image, and then it makes a spreadsheet page full of data from the pixels under the line.
The issues I can forsee with this are not enough resolution in the scanner's density readings - scanners are designed for macrodensity and probably not as much for microdensity. I have a feeling that 8-bit resolution will not be enough. So perhaps 12 or 14 or 16 bit image files would be usable. (I don't know if the Pixel-Profile software can handle these files, then then we can do stuff in photoshop to extract a set of pixel data I'm sure.
And in general, Ron and Patrick are right that calibration issues will be important. Especially after reading Dr. Henry's account of his attemps at microdensitometery in "Controls in Black and White Photography".
And targets as well. Perhaps Ron could elaborate on the target he has. I was thinking that a USAF 1951 contact target for resolution would go a long ways here, but the chrome on glass ones that would be best are pretty spendy. I figured photos of the large USAF 1951 target that Edmunds Scientific sells would be good for starting - it has high and low contrast patches, as well as R, G, and B ones.
Hope this gets the ball moving along on this idea! See, I told you I like this sort of stuff!
Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com
sanking said:If we are to be on the same page with these experiments I think the scanner concept, if it works, would be the best way to proceed since it there for all of us. Not sure how much real optical dpi is needed, but if 4000 dpi is ok then I have plenty since I can scan at a ral 5060 dpi, with easy access to 8000 dpi. And the technology is improving and getting less expensive.
I don't know the Pixel software. Is it available for Macs?
Don't know for sure if it is relevant but Henry in Controls in Black and White Photography has some information on targets.
Sandy
sanking said:I don't know the Pixel software. Is it available for Macs?
Don't know for sure if it is relevant but Henry in Controls in Black and White Photography has some information on targets.
Tom Hoskinson said:A standardized resolution target is strongly recommended. The AF 1951 Tri-Bar target is one possibility, I have several of these and they are commercially available.
Kirk Keyes said:Tom, is that the chromium on glass USAF target?
It's been a long time and I have had an attack of encephalitis in the meantime, but I found a catalog of Circuit Specialists from 1998. If they are still around, they are at www.cir.com. You will want a meter with LED readout rather than LCD. They are cheap for 3 1/2 digits, which will do quite well for this purpose. Who measures densities above 19.99?Kirk Keyes said:Pat - can you give some links to the digital panel meter you like. Anything with a serial out would be nice too. And how about some recomendations on the phototransistor? Some place like Digikey would be cool.
Does your enlarger have a voltage stabilizer on it? How about replacing the lightsource with something that could be better stabilized, led or laser perhaps. We don't need something that covers a wide area of the neg. A lot of intensity in a small area is fine. A red or green laser pointer with a bit of opal glass would make a nice light source that one could place right up against the portion of the neg that one was interested in.
df cardwell said:Of possibly more relevence, does the process suggest a protocol so refined that it will be unrepeatable and hence yield invalid results?
df cardwell said:In particular I'm concerned that the results will have micro-resolution that has less relevence to image - making than our current slap-dash protocols.
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