Michael Smith

Fhovie,

I'm not sure I understand your claims of stupidity - maybe you know something about Kodak we don't know, but they didn't create the market forces that are at work today. Given a choice, I'm quite certan Kodak would have preferred to continue making highly profitable film & paper than face the market conditions they're in now. The number 1 rule of running any business is to face reality every single day and management there has no choice but to respond to the marketplace as it is today, not as it was in the past. In recent years, Kodak made most of its money from the sale of consumer film through discount chains, drugstores, airports, grocery stores, etc... The television, microwave oven, telephone and personal computer didn't see the kind of adoption rates we've seen with digital cameras in recent years so this is the reality companies like Kodak are facing. You either get on the bus or you get left behind.

Its easy to play armchair quarterback and question every move this company and others have made. I don't know anything about little distributors or other specific moves they've made, but I do believe that delivering shareholder value is "the right and honorable thing". Anybody in this supply chain who hasn't seen the writing on the wall for years is simply not dealing with reality.

I'll miss Azo and other products, but I have faith in the human spirit so I'm confident that enterprising folks with step in to fill the void. This is where some of the best products ever made have come from - even Kodak's.

donbga said:

Ciba is gone and R4 materials are gone as well as many black and white papers. It is almost impossible to purchase black and white sheet film of any brand (I don't check any longer since I purchase online.) You may still be able to purchase Velvia at a couple of locations. I used to shoot a couple of boxes a year but not anymore because local processing is so limited.

Click to expand...

As far as I know, Cibachrome (Ilfochrome) is still alive, and RA4 paper is still widely used.

I don't miss the local processing too much, the prices for processing sheet film E6 is the best I have seen it in years; those few companies doing processing are doing it in bigger bulk. As for film, I have resigned myself to purchasing on the Internet, so it isn't a big deal.

I think that you should all be aware of the fact that the profit margin on digital products is lower, and there are more companies in the business. Therefore, per unit sold, there is less money to go around, so to speak. The profit margin on film and paper was rather high in comparison and the volume was very high.

The technology that went into analog papers was very high compared to digital paper. See how many companies supply digital paper, and they are way over charging for it compared to color paper from Kodak and Fuji. AAMOF, Kodak, Fuji and Ciba/Ilford are the only real manufacturers of color paper and Ilford and Fuji are the major players in B&W paper products. Therefore the volume of sales go to them rather than to dozens of small companies.

This is why Kodak's profit from digital is lower in spite of sales volume. Lower profit margin. It is not stupidity, just economics.

As for farming out Azo, who could do it with Kodak quality and not be a direct competitor? As for shelf life, Kodak has exacting standards and tolerances for raw stock keeping. You may think that Azo keeps well, and I'm sure it does, but if it falls outside of certain limits for any of a dozen parameters, Kodak says it has outlived its shelf life. So, just like a bottle of asprin that can keep for years, it has an expiration date on the bottle and so does most film and paper. EK can't make up a huge batch of Azo and hope for the best. They make rules and then have to follow them regarding their own quality or they lose ISO certification.

Scaling emulsions and coatings is not easy and it costs money. Unless the profit margin is there to pay for it, the development work to scale the product up or down is not available.

The Brazil and Canadian plants were open concurrently AFAIK and were open for at least 10 years if not more. The Brazil plant was open in the early 90s or late 80s, and I was shipping information down there then. We had Canadian visitors in the 90s from the plant there. I cannot remember the exact time lines, but they were not just opened and closed. They were active producers of product for quite a while. I have boxes of paper with a Brazil code on them.

PE

roteague said:

As far as I know, Cibachrome (Ilfochrome) is still alive, and RA4 paper is still widely used.

I don't miss the local processing too much, the prices for processing sheet film E6 is the best I have seen it in years; those few companies doing processing are doing it in bigger bulk. As for film, I have resigned myself to purchasing on the Internet, so it isn't a big deal.

Click to expand...

Sigh! You missed my point completely. Most of know that these products are available. The fact that these products are no longer being sold at the retail level means that people are not buying them like they did in years passed and are walking away from them them in droves.

I know it can't be just a price issue since they are purchasing expensive digital consumables off the shelf locally.

I don't care to deal with photofinishers remotely for processing E-6 sheet film and ship my exposed film off in the mail. 4 or 8 hour turn around is important to me.

donbga said:

Sigh! You missed my point completely. Most of know that these products are available. The fact that these products are no longer being sold at the retail level means that people are not buying them like they did in years passed and are walking away from them them in droves.

Click to expand...

Ahh.... I see. I was a bit slow on the take. Thanks for clarifying that.

donbga said:

Sigh! You missed my point completely. Most of know that these products are available. The fact that these products are no longer being sold at the retail level means that people are not buying them like they did in years passed and are walking away from them them in droves.

I know it can't be just a price issue since they are purchasing expensive digital consumables off the shelf locally.

I don't care to deal with photofinishers remotely for processing E-6 sheet film and ship my exposed film off in the mail. 4 or 8 hour turn around is important to me.

Click to expand...

I know quite a few people who still buy the same amount of materials that they did 5 years ago except tthey purchase everything online.

I quit buying locally a couple of years ago when the stores quit carrying AGFA products due to new minimum order requirements. They also quit carrying quite a few chemicals. So if I was going to on-line order AGFA paper and rodinal (at about a 20% discount over the local retailer) why not order everything else?

Also, if you look at the price differences (at least in my case), there was a huge markup on everything. For me, in today's ever increasing prices for analogue materials there is simply no choice but to order on line from someone like B&H or Freestyle or for more special films from J&C.

donbga said:

Sigh! You missed my point completely. Most of know that these products are available. The fact that these products are no longer being sold at the retail level means that people are not buying them like they did in years passed and are walking away from them them in droves.

Click to expand...

I get your point Don. It pretty much goes without saying that retail volume of the past is down and not returning which leads to higher retail prices at local shops. The fact that online retailers can still offer these materials at relatively low prices indicates they must be doing a pretty good volume though. Their customers are funneled from all over the world and not just the local neighborhood. However for now at least, the collective demand seems to be keeping us all in film and paper. Perhaps the local photo shop is a thing of the past... so it goes. But I also used to be able to walk down the street a visit my neighborhood hobby shop. When was the last time you saw one of those? Doesn't mean I can't still go online and find a mean model airplane.

I also can't agree with you more that people have moved away from film as that is obvious. To go further, I am starting to believe that people are moving in "droves" away from photography in general. Much like music, a digital mentality has made it less important. It has become so common that it is very much taken for granted and has a less important role in people's lives. It doesn't even speak the truth anymore. It isn't digital photography that has all but killed film, it is the digital age that has rendered photography, photographers and many things useless.

Just rambling...

B.

Does Smith give Azo workshops any more at all? I was really hoping to go to one... or does the relative lack of the material these days preclude them? Last time I was on his site - a week ago or two - he was still selling the stuff.

billschwab said:

But I also used to be able to walk down the street a visit my neighborhood hobby shop. When was the last time you saw one of those? Doesn't mean I can't still go online and find a mean model airplane.

...

It doesn't even speak the truth anymore. It isn't digital photography that has all but killed film, it is the digital age that has rendered photography, photographers and many things useless.

Click to expand...

From what I hear this is a golden age for model building. But it's mostly adults who are into the stuff and there are few local hobby shops. Like photo is becoming, most of the selling is done online and it's a billions of dollars a year industry.

Maybe they will start making model kits of rolls of film and cameras.

As far as truth and that stuff, it's always been a suggestive thing. Depends on who's truth you're talking about.

But things change. It's the nature of the world. Change is life - the opposite is death. Sometimes change causes harm. For all we know a comet may hit tomorrow and film will really be dead then.

My position is I like to shoot film. I want to continue to shoot film. I like my film cameras. But more than that I care about images. If the tools change and there's no more film, I'll use the new tools to make the images I care about. If you take a step back and think about it calmly, photography is not going away. Yes, the tools have changed quickly in the last few years but how I feel about photos has not been altered by that fact.

I'm not going to be a person who starts coating glass plates because I can't buy a roll of Tri-X. I couldn't do the type of photography I care about that way. But it seems there will continue to be a market for silver for a while. It's certainly going to be different (maybe fewer choices) but it may be exciting (new manufactures)!

Sparky said:

Does Smith give Azo workshops any more at all?

Click to expand...

Yes

c6h6o3 said:

Yes

Click to expand...

Yes, well, thanks... I saw those already... though they appear to be shooting workshops... I was hoping for something that allows you to bring your own negs to make azo prints from... though I suppose that wouldn't do, huh?

Sparky said:

Does Smith give Azo workshops any more at all? I was really hoping to go to one... or does the relative lack of the material these days preclude them? Last time I was on his site - a week ago or two - he was still selling the stuff.

Click to expand...

Absolutly. Check their website (www.MichaelAndPaula.com) for information regarding workshops. I believe the next workshop that would be fairly close to you will be in Sedona, AZ around the end of January.

AZO printing is only one small part of what you will learn in their workshop. They are intense. If your interested in attending one of their workshops, I suggest signing up soon because they are usually full!

Ryan, is correct. They are intense and you can and ARE encouraged to bring your own negatives for review and for printing. In fact, he asks you to bring negatives that you find difficult to print. He will work with them in the darkroom printing with you and the group to see how he works with a print. I find other aspects of the workshop equally, or even better FWIW.

Sparky said:

Yes, well, thanks... I saw those already... though they appear to be shooting workshops... I was hoping for something that allows you to bring your own negs to make azo prints from... though I suppose that wouldn't do, huh?

Click to expand...

Michael does that. Youl'll spend quite a few hours with him in the darkroom. That part of the workshop, however, represented the least valuable part of the experience for me. The Vision part is what's the most valuable. That, and Paula's cooking (although, how much of that will she do in Sedona, AZ?)