MGIV and selenium

If I toned a warmtone paper (let's say Forte polywarm FB) in KRST 1:19 for 5~6 minutes @ 70F, I would expect a considerable shift in colour and would also expect the protective mechanism of selenium to be present to some degree.
Now suppose I use a 'neutral' paper such as Ilford MGIV FB. Given the same processing as above, I would expect little (if any) colour shift, and this is borne out in practise. However, could I expect the same degree of protection as a warmtone paper given, as I said, the same processing? In short; Is the protective element of selenium indicated by the amount of colour shift? BLIGHTY.

I have read that no, the amount of color shift is not indicative of selenium's ability to protect. Selenium for archivalness is much weaker in dilution as opposed to selenium for toning/color. I wish I could get you a more authoritative answer

Sure you'll have the same degree of archival permanence, but you'd have the same permanince after a minute with a cold toned paper. Or to ensure less waste from carry over dilute further and tone a little longer, it's in Kodak's instructions.

If I toned one of my Polywarmtone prints in KRST 1:19 at 20°C for 5 minutes it would have split toned and almost certainly gone to far beyond. But then if your not using a warmtoned dev then it might be different.

Beware the new batch of Polywarmtone reacts very rapidly in Selenium

Ian

It's been mentioned in these forums before, but can't recommend enough Tim Rudman's "The Photographer's Toning Book" - which is available for a little bit more than the cost of a bottle of toner, and well worth it.

He recommends that, for true archival processing, you really don't want to dilute Selenium more than 1:9. I use Ilford Multigrade IV quite a bit, and find that 3-4 minutes at this dilution shifts the color very little (though definitely noticable).

js

Ilford MGIV neutral and cold show very little tone shift in selenium, IMHO it just gets rid of that greenish-gray cast. MG cooltone is the one that becomes incredible beautiful in selenium, acquiring a bluish tone and a "glow" in the shadows and midtones.

After reading Rudamn's book I try to tone to completion, which measn leaving the prints in seleium toner for 5-10 min (RC) or 15-20 minutes (FB) [I use Paterson Accutone Se now], then HCA and wash.

Blighty said:

If I toned a warmtone paper (let's say Forte polywarm FB) in KRST 1:19 for 5~6 minutes @ 70F, I would expect a considerable shift in colour and would also expect the protective mechanism of selenium to be present to some degree.
Now suppose I use a 'neutral' paper such as Ilford MGIV FB. Given the same processing as above, I would expect little (if any) colour shift, and this is borne out in practise. However, could I expect the same degree of protection as a warmtone paper given, as I said, the same processing? In short; Is the protective element of selenium indicated by the amount of colour shift? BLIGHTY.

Click to expand...

For the nth time we get into "archival" the adjective, then on to the adverb, verb and noun. The age old question is always the same, "what do I have to give up to achieve complete permanence?" This leads to the next question, "Do I need COMPLETE permanence?" Then, "How impermanent is an untoned print?"

What good is an ugly print that will last forever? On your deathbed will you have to excuse the pronounced eggplant color, saying, "I had to destroy the mood in order to save the print"?

If you MUST print on paper "A" and it does not tone with a color you like, tone for less time or tone with a different metal that you do like. Any noble metal toning is better than none if the print looks good to your eyes. The likelihood that the print will be subjected to the rigors from which only full toning will protect are small.

The FixA/FixB/Hypoclear/Wash axis is far more critical than the KRST for 3 min. vs. KRST for 4 min. axis.

My take is that any selenium toning should increase the durability of the print. Or is there something I don't know?
A correctly washed untoned RC or fibre print will last a long long time unless abused. A sel toned one will last a lot longer.

I use a lot of MGIV, both RC and fibre. Yes it is reluctant to react with selenium, particulary the fibre version. I find that a strong warm KRS solution (1+4 at about 25 degrees C) will rapidly shift MGIV RC from that horrible green tinge to a rather pleasing slight blue tone with consiberably more depth in the shadows. The fibre is less keen to react, but it will shift, I looks more charcoally to me, it doesn't go as blue as the RC.

Must get round to trying some of the cooltone, shame they don't do it in fibre though.

Blighty said:

If I toned a warmtone paper (let's say Forte polywarm FB) in KRST 1:19 for 5~6 minutes @ 70F, I would expect a considerable shift in colour and would also expect the protective mechanism of selenium to be present to some degree.
Now suppose I use a 'neutral' paper such as Ilford MGIV FB. Given the same processing as above, I would expect little (if any) colour shift, and this is borne out in practise. However, could I expect the same degree of protection as a warmtone paper given, as I said, the same processing? In short; Is the protective element of selenium indicated by the amount of colour shift? BLIGHTY.

Click to expand...

As someone suggested get Rudmans book. However some points that you seem shaky on. The "protective mechanism" that you refer has nothing to do with color shift. That is just a product of the properties of the various papers. Warm tone papers especially fiber, shift in color and the amount is dependant on the time in the selenium, the type of developer and the paper used.

The thing I think that you are perhaps missing is that the"protective mechanism" is really the fact that the selenium is changing the silver to silver selenide ( I believe) and that is a chemical compound that is more hardy, archival, tougher than the silver was initially.

So in theory keeping the print in the selenium for about 5 minutes (1:9) will make it a more archival print than if it was just in for a minute.

Whether the print deserves to be archival or not is a whole other discussion.

Michael