MF SLR system

[brunico]

I'd had my heart set on a Kiev 88, but they're not that cheap and I've started to look wider for an MF SLR system. I'm completely undecided at the moment, so I'm just looking for pointers from people so I can go off and do more research.

It won't be for everyday photography, just for more deliberate sessions. I know it has to be an SLR - I don't want a TLR or another folder or Holga, and rangefinders are too expensive.

Format. I'm drawn to 6x6, but the camera and lens are more important to me right now. 'Lens' is either a wide and a short tele or just a normal. Other than this, I want:

• bulb and mirror lock-up

• ability to use a pinhole, maybe do some experimental stuff (so focal plane shutters and multiple exposure are preferable)

• lighter weight/bulk: WLF preferred, metering not required

• good, useable lenses - I'll only want to buy one or two, so a particularly good wide or a compact lens, for instance, might sway the camera/format choice

I think this narrows it down to:

• Bronica SQ-Ai: more expensive than the models without bulb/MLU, but the 150mm Zenzanon-S seems a really creamy lens, and the 40mm is interesting in square format because of the 'wider' height over 645

• Bronica ETR-Si: again, more expensive to get bulb/MLU, and there seem to be fewer reviews of the ETR lenses

• Mamiya 645: it seems the Super and Pro models both have bulb/MLU, and it's tempting for the 80/1.9, even if the bokeh is the opposite of the 150mm Zenzanon-S

Grateful for any thoughts here. And a specific question. Is the Bronica SQ series that much bigger than the ETR or 645?

 

[silentworld]

I have been using Bronica ETRSi with 40, 75, 135 and 180 (all PE lens) for a year now and am quite happy with the kit and the image quality. I wouldn't call it that expensive to get MLU as even a ETRSi body would only cost about $100 on KEH. If MLU and minimizing vibration is important to you, you need to remember that even though Mamiya models have the MLU, their focal shutter will still introduce some vibration, which you can't get rid of. I am mainly shooting landscape and minimizing vibration is important to me. I went through the similar thinking process and decided to go with ETRSi.

 

[Jeff Kubach]

Why not go for the RB67 they are cheap!

Jeff

 

[Sirius Glass]

Why not go for the RB67 they are cheap!

Jeff

Because it is not 6x6! See the OP's posting. If you had a 4"x5" or 8"x10" would you push that too?

Steve

 

[brunico]

Thanks, all. I did look into 6x7 options, but there were noticeably bigger, and this is a camera I'll want to handhold and carry around. The ETR-Si with WLF and 80mm isn't much heavier than my old Nikon F3 and 105mm, which wasn't so heavy that it felt like a drag if I carried it around but didn't actually use it. The RB67 would be twice the weight, and a lot bulkier in a shoulder bag.

 

[r-brian]

I shot a Bronica SQa for years. Never had a problem with it. The lenses are as good as they come. It had MLU and I think bulb (not sure because it's been a couple of years but pretty sure I shot long exposures). And a SQa is really cheap. The P lenses are cheaper than the PS lenses and I never saw any difference in quality, only difference is the P's have full stop f/stops, the PS's have half stop f/stops. With a speed grip, the SQa was easier to carry and shot than my Nikon N90s that I had at the time. And I never had a problem with the meter in the AE prism, always gave me proper exposures.

 

[ChrisC]

Because it is not 6x6! See the OP's posting. If you had a 4"x5" or 8"x10" would you push that too?

Steve

It's significantly squarer (less cropping in print) than either of the 6x4.5 options mentioned so far.

Weight/bulk is a legitimate turnoff, though.

 

[John Koehrer]

Because it is not 6x6! See the OP's posting. If you had a 4"x5" or 8"x10" would you push that too?

Steve

Neither's the 645 on his list.

 

[djacobox372]

The mamiya 645 is a nice option due to its size and hand-hold ability. Sure it's not as high-res as 6x7, but you still have twice the res as 35mm.

 

[keithwms]

I second the rb suggestion, if for no other reason than to piss off Steve. It's also a very fine rig for "deliberate sessions." For that it's very hard to beat at its price. Also, pinhole n 6x7 or 6x8 is quite nice. With 645... not so much. With pinhole you typically want to print right around the negative size, not much larger. 6x7 or 6x8 format will yield some nice contact prints.

If you're a bokeh lover then you might want an rz with a 110/2.8. Also not expenisve.

I have a 645 pro and I do enjoy it with the 80/1.9. I honestly don't use it as much as the rb or rz though.

Mind you for "lighter weight" you can rule out the rb and rz both, most will argue.

For "deliberate sessions" you mean portraiture and such? Tripod bound usually?

 

[cjbecker]

I would really consider the rb 67, it is big but it has bellow focusing so you can focus really close, the focusing with the knob is very nice, but it is personal opinion. The lens are very nice, and have a great selection.

 

[paul ron]

Of the three cameras lsited two are 645 format and one 6x6, I'd recomend the Bronica ETRSi. THey are realatively cheap and offer a great assortment of accessories n lenses. It has the MU and lenses are wonderful. This is a great all around reliable camera. I use the older ETRS and love it. It takes very high quality images and is a very low maintenance camera.

How are you intending to use your camera... landscape, street, studio, weddings or just an everyday walkabout camera?

As for an RB, not that I'd be biased because i repair them, they are top shelf cameras that sell very cheap these days. Can't beat a mechanical camera for reliability.

 

[MattKing]

I have and use a Mamiya 645 Pro and used to have a 645 Super body as well. I'm not a huge fan of the 80mm f/1.9 - instead I recommend some of the other lenses because of their size and the fact that they share common filter and barrel sizes (I use the focus assist lever).

A 55mm, 110mm, 210mm lens kit is my favourite. I do like my 45mm N series lens too though.

 

[paul ron]

Another feature of the RB I forgot to mention... because the bellow is 43mm over extended, it acts like an extension tube so almost all of your lenses will be able to shoot macro. My 50mm can focus to 2" giving some interesting effects.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Well, since you did not put a specific amount into the equation, I'll say go for a Hasselblad system.

Starting at $800 you can get all you need, lens quality is far from being a problem, and if you're doing pinhole, then you don't need a focal plane shutter, just a lens cap. Remember that you can also rent Hassy lenses much more easily than other systems. And you have a friend for life.

Although I consider the RB/RZ67 to be handholdable (I'm a big guy), I would say the 500 series is much easier to shoot handheld.

An alternative would be the Pentax 67, which is slightly more affordable (starts around $600), comes with a focal plane shutter, and has decent rental possibilities.

 

[David R Munson]

I'm not a huge fan of the 80mm f/1.9 - instead I recommend some of the other lenses because of their size and the fact that they share common filter and barrel sizes (I use the focus assist lever).

I'm curious - why not a fan? I consider the 80/1.9 alone reason enough to buy into the Mamiya 645 system, but then obviously it's a lens that fits me. The 45/2.8 is also great. Also, plenty of other 645 lenses use 67mm filters, so if you're apt to go with the faster versions of lenses, that's not a problem. Also, a 58 to 67 step ring is easy to find and an effective solution if you have lenses with both filter diameters.

 

[MattKing]

I'm curious - why not a fan? I consider the 80/1.9 alone reason enough to buy into the Mamiya 645 system, but then obviously it's a lens that fits me. The 45/2.8 is also great. Also, plenty of other 645 lenses use 67mm filters, so if you're apt to go with the faster versions of lenses, that's not a problem. Also, a 58 to 67 step ring is easy to find and an effective solution if you have lenses with both filter diameters.

I may be a fan, just not a huge fan.

I rarely shoot any of my lenses wide open. In addition, I tend to prefer something slightly wider as a standard lens, so I don't get a lot of use from an 80mm lens. In fact, I no longer have one.

If I were to buy another 80mm lens, the 80mm macro would be a more likely candidate than the 80mm f/1.9.

I agree with you about the filter sizes. In my case, however, the usability of the focus assist lever is a more important consideration. Sadly, I cannot use it with the 45mm lens.

As always, your mileage may vary.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I second the rb suggestion, if for no other reason than to piss off Steve.

There is nothing wrong with the RB. But when the OP clearly states what they want, that is not an invitation to push ones favorite format down their throat. Responders should stay on topic and not try to sell their mistakes.

 

[brunico]

Thanks all for the conversation... lots for me to go away and think about!

I'm a hobbyist photographer doing a mix of urban/cityscapes and nothing in particular - probably a couple of rolls a month in film. I recently had to sell all my 35mm RF gear, leaving me with just a Panasonic GF1 and 20/1.7 (40mm equivalent). So for a few months I've been figuring that an MF SLR would be relatively inexpensive, give me a different pace and way of working from the digicam (ground glass, manual focus etc.) as well as scratch the itch for having every function controlled by its own knob and dial and for loading and developing film and using a proper cable release and all the other stuff I miss.

I think the square format would further differentiate how I'd work with the MF SLR (slow, deliberate) from how I work with the Panasonic (blast away).

I shot with a Moskva-5 for a while, so I'm not completely new to MF. But I'd like something a little more reliable and versatile ;-) And I want to plan out what I'll do with it and what I'll actually need, rather than ending up with a drawerful of stuff that I can't carry around.

 

[hoffy]

I went through the same thing and ended up going with a Bronica SQ-Ai (after using a Koni-Omega and not getting the hang of it). In the end, the 6x6 format was the most versatile for what I wanted, for the following reasons:

I wanted something that I was happy to use in both the studio and on the street and with a waist level finder. Without having to deal with rotating backs, 6x6 was the only answer.
I wanted something that I could hand hold 75% of the time. While I am not convinced that the RB/RZ should be confined to the tripod, I could see that it would only be comfortable to use for short stints.
I am a hobbyist. I have a mortgage and two kids to private school and then hopefully put through university. While buying a hasslblad 500C/M wouldn't have been out of reach, keeping up with lenses would have been!
I wanted something that was a later release. I am not afraid of electronics. It is also interesting to note that it is still possible (if you look hard enough) to find some new lenses for the SQ-A and they are not priced over the top.

That was my decision process.

 

[David R Munson]

I may be a fan, just not a huge fan.

I rarely shoot any of my lenses wide open. In addition, I tend to prefer something slightly wider as a standard lens, so I don't get a lot of use from an 80mm lens. In fact, I no longer have one.

If I were to buy another 80mm lens, the 80mm macro would be a more likely candidate than the 80mm f/1.9.

I agree with you about the filter sizes. In my case, however, the usability of the focus assist lever is a more important consideration. Sadly, I cannot use it with the 45mm lens.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Thanks for the follow-up. I'm always curious abut these things.

 

[revdocjim]

If you want to hand hold I strongly recommend any of the Bronica leaf shutter models over the RB. They are way easier to handle and carry around. They work well with either a speed grip and prism finder or regular crank and WLF. The ETR is the least square shaped of the three since it is 645. The GS-1 is 6x7 but is actually lighter than the SQ!

If you are okay with 645 the Mamiya Pro TL is really easy to handle and feels like a modern camera.
The Pentax 645 is also really easy to use and very reliable, although it isn't a modular system. If you get the first version you have to deal with the funky buttons instead of dials but it still works great and is cheap. I frequently see them with the standard lens for around $200!

 

[hpulley]

I love my RB67 and find it easy to hand hold using a neck strap and the grip. 6x7 is closer to square than 6x9 but it still isn't square. Composing properly for square rather than just using it as an excuse for not having to rotate the camera (or back) is difficult, I find it easier to compose properly in 6x7, especially with the rotating back.

I shoot my Yashicaflex and 126 Instamatics when I want to shoot square pictures. Square pictures are a pain to print too unless you cut your own sheets you will end up having to either crop or cut down most standard paper sizes. Not the end of the world at all and convenient if you like to cut test strips off, you conveniently get a few from every sheet in that case ;-)

With such good optics available at such reasonable prices I don't quite understand the fascination with pinhole work but I do enjoy using a simple plastic meniscus lens from time to time which I suppose is similar when I could instead use a modern multi-grouped multi-element glass lens. With the bellows focusing of the RB67 a pinhole will be a zoom lens effectively which could be fun I suppose.

The bellows, as mentioned, also gives you practically macro capability with a wide angle lens.

The 6x7 negatives are just wonderful to print as I said, probably the best size for standard paper. 135, 6x6, 6x9 are all a pain to print by comparison.

 

[TareqPhoto]

Pity that Hasselblad V series is not one of the options, it is my best 6x6 and i will not think to buy Bronica or Keiv or something else to compare with my Hasselblad, it won my vote before i buy it while time ago

 

[usuthu65]

So over on KEH, the SQ-AM bodies seem to be slightly less expensive than the SQ-As. Anyone know why that is or why you should choose one over the other?