MF folder, rangefinder or TLR with biometar like rendering?

1kgcoffee · May 19, 2022

Looking to add a MF camera to my collection. I don't care so much about resolution or sharpness, as specular highlights and bokeh, and beautiful contrast. Looking for biometar like rendering. My intention is to shoot this camera wide open for portraits. Prefer a rangefinder or folder, but open to TLR if compact. Actually prefer a bit softer - but not too soft.

Prefer longer focal lengths. (50mm+ equivalent)

I just acquired a GW690 but it does not have the bokeh I am looking for.

Suggestions?

gone · May 19, 2022

I had a Rolleicord w/ a Triotar lens that made beautiful portraits. 3 element lenses are sharp only in the center until they're stopped down, which was what I wanted.

I suspect that nothing will give you better portraits and creamier bokeh than a 35mm camera w/ a Leica R 90 Elmarit or Summicron lens, I've tried about all of them. The Canon FD 85 1.8 is in the same league just about, at least in terms of IQ, certainly not in build quality. Put something like Delta 100 in a 35mm camera and use one of those lenses and you would have a hard time figuring out what was 35mm and what was MF.

A short tele on a 35mm camera will give you an opportunity to just get the eyes sharp and keep everything else soft. They don't make many short tele, MF lenses, although a 'blad 150/180 Sonnar might just be the ticket.

Dan Daniel · May 20, 2022

You might think about getting a Speed Graphic 6x9 camera and using roll film holders. With the in-camera focal plane shutter, this will let you use a wide variety of lenses, including many old barrel mount lenses. Who knows, maybe an actual Biometar 80mm will have enough image circle to be usable?

Not sure what you are looking for in your portraits, but view cameras can create a distinct 'atmosphere' when shooting.

flavio81 · May 20, 2022

1kgcoffee said:
Looking to add a MF camera to my collection. I don't care so much about resolution or sharpness, as specular highlights and bokeh, and beautiful contrast. Looking for biometar like rendering. My intention is to shoot this camera wide open for portraits. Prefer a rangefinder or folder, but open to TLR if compact. Actually prefer a bit softer - but not too soft.

Prefer longer focal lengths. (50mm+ equivalent)

I just acquired a GW690 but it does not have the bokeh I am looking for.

Suggestions?

You'll need to specify what do you expect with "biometar-like rendering". Maybe with some examples.

Most medium format camera systems had at least one short-tele lens with awesome bokeh. For example: Mamiya 135/4.5 for the TLR system, Mamiya 180/4.5 for the RB67.

projectbluebird · May 20, 2022

Medium Format? Biometar?
A Pentacon 6 fits both of those requirements in spades. Particularly in regards to normal to short telephoto focal lengths.

…it may not be the most compact option though.

mohmad khatab · May 20, 2022

projectbluebird said:
Medium Format? Biometar?
A Pentacon 6 fits both of those requirements in spades. Particularly in regards to normal to short telephoto focal lengths.

…it may not be the most compact option though.

hello brother I apologize for the intrusion.
I see through your personal data that you are from (Western Desert) and by following the map I found that what is meant is the Egyptian Western Desert.
In fact, I know that it is a barren area where there is no planting or water, and it is almost impossible for people to live in it.
Are you from the Egyptian Western Sahara?
Or does it belong to what is called (the Republic of the Sahara), the disputed republic between the Kingdom of Morocco and its original inhabitants?

Down Under · May 20, 2022

Look for the oldest Rolleicord you can find.

The 1930s "prewar" models had Triotar lenses, probably very similar to the Biometar, both of which gave a unique rendering.

I once owned, briefly, the renowned Art Deco 'cord which was a most unusual looking TLR and produced negatives of a sort I've not seen in any other camera - not even those from my 1960s Rolleicord Vb come close to it. In time an avid collector saw me using it and offered me such a good price, I couldn't pass it up, so I sold it. My Vb has replaced it, and while it's an excellent camera, oddly, I find the negatives from it are rather too sharp and well-defined for my liking. Color negatives and slides are superb, tho.

A Rolleicord with a lens hood, a few filters, a 16 exposure kit and some film in a pocket will be an easy travel companion. An exposure meter helps, but isn't really essential after you've worked out how to use the Sunny 16 Exposure Method.

1kgcoffee · May 20, 2022

flavio81 said:
You'll need to specify what do you expect with "biometar-like rendering". Maybe with some examples.

Most medium format camera systems had at least one short-tele lens with awesome bokeh. For example: Mamiya 135/4.5 for the TLR system, Mamiya 180/4.5 for the RB67.

Good example of biometar would the famous Helios 44-2, swirly bokeh, somewhat soft. Specular highlights that overlap. I'm not sure how to describe it, except that I find it very pleasing compared to evenly blurred background.

L1050498_Flickr_4096_nicopx_Carl_Zeiss_Biometar_80mm_f2.8__c1 by Nico V, on Flickr

Cerisier by Simon Grossi, on Flickr

Another example, besides the Helios and actual Biometar would be the Vega-12b on Kiev 6x6 cameras

ozmoose said:
Look for the oldest Rolleicord you can find.

The 1930s "prewar" models had Triotar lenses, probably very similar to the Biometar, both of which gave a unique rendering.

I once owned, briefly, the renowned Art Deco 'cord which was a most unusual looking TLR and produced negatives of a sort I've not seen in any other camera - not even those from my 1960s Rolleicord Vb come close to it. In time an avid collector saw me using it and offered me such a good price, I couldn't pass it up, so I sold it. My Vb has replaced it, and while it's an excellent camera, oddly, I find the negatives from it are rather too sharp and well-defined for my liking. Color negatives and slides are superb, tho.

A Rolleicord with a lens hood, a few filters, a 16 exposure kit and some film in a pocket will be an easy travel companion. An exposure meter helps, but isn't really essential after you've worked out how to use the Sunny 16 Exposure Method.

I've actually been looking at Rolleicord, but more so the Xenar or Xenotars. You're telling me the cheaper Triotars produce images with more character?

projectbluebird said:
Medium Format? Biometar?
A Pentacon 6 fits both of those requirements in spades. Particularly in regards to normal to short telephoto focal lengths.

…it may not be the most compact option though.

That's the problem. I have a MF Kiev with the Vega, which I really like, but hoping for something a little more compact and reliable.

Dan Daniel said:
...

Not sure what you are looking for in your portraits, but view cameras can create a distinct 'atmosphere' when shooting.

Interested but I'd like to keep the setup a little more compact..

momus said:
I had a Rolleicord w/ a Triotar lens that made beautiful portraits. 3 element lenses are sharp only in the center until they're stopped down, which was what I wanted.
...

A short tele on a 35mm camera will give you an opportunity to just get the eyes sharp and keep everything else soft. They don't make many short tele, MF lenses, although a 'blad 150/180 Sonnar might just be the ticket.

Thats two for the rollei. Genuinely leaning to a rolleicord. I just love the tonality and resolution of a good MF shot. Also prefer shooting colour negative.

Patrick Robert James · May 20, 2022

I think what you are looking for is a Voigtlander Bessa RF or II with the Heliar. The Bessa RF was pre war so the Heliar would be uncoated. The post war II would be coated.

Rolleiflex did make a TLR with a Biometar, but I'm sure that is a collectible now since they didn't make them for very long. Still, that is out there if you are absolutely jonezing for a Biometar and you have money to burn.

I think Voigtlander also made a TLR called the Superb that had a Heliar before the war IIRC. Pics from that look pretty good IIRC.

I kind of agree with others that a Triotar would be pretty good and cost effective. Besides the Rolleiflexes, some Zeiss Ikoflexes had a Triotar formula called a Novar.

If you want to stay with a folder for size, then again Voigtlander had the Bessa RF with the Helomar (triotar) before the war. As far as folders with a rangefinder goes that is the only one I can think of that had a triotar lens. Most coupled rangefinder folders were considered premium so they got the "better" Tessar lenses. I think (don't quote me) that there were some folders like Balda with the Schneider Radionar which IIRC was a triplet. I dont' know if they were coupled rangefinders though.

Uncoated vs. coated is another thing you might look at. You will get less contrast with uncoated lenses but that might be just what you are looking for.

Hope that helps you.

Down Under · May 21, 2022

1kgcoffee said:
I've actually been looking at Rolleicord, but more so the Xenar or Xenotars. You're telling me the cheaper Triotars produce images with more character?

Yes, in a way. The Triotar on my ancient 'cord did something unusual, and quite special, to all the B&W negatives I took with it. It worked on the grain structure on the film to produce truly unique patterns. That's really all I can say to try to explain it. The later V series Rolleicords had Xenars (as did some early 1950s Rolleiflex Automats) which were must sharper, with a "pattern" of their own, but nothing like the older prewar Rolleicord lenses.

BTW no Rolleicord der had a Xenotar. Only the Rolleiflex automat series did. My 1961 3.5E2 has a Planar, my two Ts have Tessars, and my Rolleicord Vb has a Xenar. In my time I've owned two other 'flexes with Xenotars, but I can't say the images I made with these looked any different to those from the Planar.

I would also suggest you use slower MF films, in the range of (the old discontinued) Plus-X Pan or (the still available) Ilford FP4. I often use the faster Ilford HP5 but I find the rendering to be distinctly ordinary. Tri-X Pan has, or at least had in its previous avatars, much more character. Not sure about the latest version of this film as I've not used it. Someone else maybe can comment on this latter point.

Rolleiflexible · May 21, 2022

Forget Rollei TLRs if you want a pronounced effect. A Triotar is still a sharp lens. It will soften a touch at the edges, and because of that it is my favorite, but it is not a bokeh monster.

Two ideas, one cheap, one not. (1) Get a Brownie and flip the lens. (2) Get a Rollei SL66 and make your own lens using a meniscus and ingenunity. The SL66 is a great platform for homemade lenses because it has an internal shutter. You can also mount short LF lenses to an SL66 body, and go crazy trying out old rapid rectilinear and portrait lenses to get the effect you seek.

Sanders McNew
www.Flickr.com/sandersnyc
www.Instagram.com/sandersnyc

flavio81 · May 21, 2022

1kgcoffee said:
That's the problem. I have a MF Kiev with the Vega, which I really like, but hoping for something a little more compact and reliable.

Which Kiev? 60? 88? They can be very reliable if a good technician services them.

BTW, I love your username.

flavio81 · May 21, 2022

projectbluebird said:
Medium Format? Biometar?
A Pentacon 6 fits both of those requirements in spades. Particularly in regards to normal to short telephoto focal lengths.

…it may not be the most compact option though.

This is the best answer really. And a Pentacon Six with the WLF is a quite compact medium format camera.

You want biometar-like rendering? Nothing like the real stuff!

NB23 · May 21, 2022

No idea what is Biometar rendering. However, for great portraits I would never use 50mm equivalent, that always ends up ugly.

I’d definitely use a TeleRolleiflex with a Rolleinar. This will take care of the model’s face and features while adding boke to the image, because you will be closer.
There’s definitely some magic happening with a Rolleinar.

AgX · May 21, 2022

mohmad khatab said:
hello brother I apologize for the intrusion.
I see through your personal data that you are from (Western Desert) and by following the map I found that what is meant is the Egyptian Western Desert.
In fact, I know that it is a barren area where there is no planting or water, and it is almost impossible for people to live in it.
Are you from the Egyptian Western Sahara?
Or does it belong to what is called (the Republic of the Sahara), the disputed republic between the Kingdom of Morocco and its original inhabitants?

https://www.internetgeography.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Western-Desert-Map-1030x636.png

In case of doubt assume a fellow at this forum being from the USA.
This case though shows what casual filling out of a profile will lead to. Not the first case...

projectbluebird · May 21, 2022

AgX said:
In case of doubt assume a fellow at this forum being from the USA.
This case though shows what casual filling out of a profile will lead to. Not the first case...

To clear up any confusion, AgX is correct. I am from the USA, and live on the eastern edge of what is known around here as the ‘West Desert’ And today I have learned its official toponym: the Great Salt Lake Desert. It may be something of a cliche, but it has been my experience that many of my fellow Americans have a hazy grasp on geography, and make little distinction between West/Western.

To return to the original topic, this thread has reawakened my latent, but ever-present, GAS.
I have found myself considering if I really need yet another MF camera, or even system?

Hmmmmm.

Down Under · May 22, 2022

NB23 said:
No idea what is Biometar rendering. However, for great portraits I would never use 50mm equivalent, that always ends up ugly.

I’d definitely use a TeleRolleiflex with a Rolleinar. This will take care of the model’s face and features while adding boke to the image, because you will be closer.
There’s definitely some magic happening with a Rolleinar.

Your pockets must be very deep...

A nice choice, if you can afford a Tele. Also, if you can find one in usable condition - most I've seen in recent years have separation problems in the taking lens, which will cost an additional small fortune to have fixed.

The Rolleinars for this beast are a design unique to the Tele and will also cost you a small mint, again if you can locate one or the two. The last set I saw up for sale would have cost almost as much as the camera. Of course nobody bought it and eventually the listing (on Ebay) was pulled. The regular two-part Rolleinars are cheaper, but their prices are also way up nowadays.

Another "minus" with the Tele are that alas, they are the most expensive (along with the Wide Angle Rollei) to repair. Parts for either are scarce (and expensive) as not many were produced in their time. Yes, new models are, or at least were available from Rollei in Europe, again at a super high price.

Nice try. Something maybe more, well, realistically affordable? With a little care, a "regular" Rollei TLR or any other TLR (Yashica comes to mind) in good condition, will give you exceptionally good portraits, if you can resist sticking it up the subject's nose and keep a little distance between you and the sitter. Then enlarge a little.

They are also much more easily found and purchased in reasonable working order. Plus repairs if and when needed are expensive, but not as much as the rarer models.

So it's best to buy a standard Rollei, ideally one from the 1960s (many Ts are available in good working order) and learn to use it well.

Problem solved!!

NB23 · May 22, 2022

ozmoose said:
Your pockets must be very deep...

A nice choice, if you can afford a Tele. Also, if you can find one in usable condition - most I've seen in recent years have separation problems in the taking lens, which will cost an additional small fortune to have fixed.

The Rolleinars for this beast are a design unique to the Tele and will also cost you a small mint, again if you can locate one or the two. The last set I saw up for sale would have cost almost as much as the camera. Of course nobody bought it and eventually the listing (on Ebay) was pulled. The regular two-part Rolleinars are cheaper, but their prices are also way up nowadays.

Another "minus" with the Tele are that alas, they are the most expensive (along with the Wide Angle Rollei) to repair. Parts for either are scarce (and expensive) as not many were produced in their time. Yes, new models are, or at least were available from Rollei in Europe, again at a super high price.

Nice try. Something maybe more, well, realistically affordable? With a little care, a "regular" Rollei TLR or any other TLR (Yashica comes to mind) in good condition, will give you exceptionally good portraits, if you can resist sticking it up the subject's nose and keep a little distance between you and the sitter. Then enlarge a little.

They are also much more easily found and purchased in reasonable working order. Plus repairs if and when needed are expensive, but not as much as the rarer models.

So it's best to buy a standard Rollei, ideally one from the 1960s (many Ts are available in good working order) and learn to use it well.

Problem solved!!

The Tele are not really expensive, the Wide are, though.

Unfortunately, it seems that all teles will
suffer lens separation, down the road. Even the clean ones show that bluish cloudiness in the coating that is, in fact, the start of delamination.

Here is a clean one, with Rolleinar 0.35, for 1499$. I believe this is quite affordable.

Ebay # 234500473590

NB23 · May 22, 2022

The Mamiya C220 with 135mm or 180mm is quite a bargain, and you can focus super close for that extra bhokey.

Again, I don’t know what is the Biometar look, but using a longer lens and focusing close is a very desireable look, much better than using a 80mm lens (in MF terms) up close which distorts faces and fattens them noses.

Down Under · May 23, 2022

NB23 said:
The Tele are not really expensive, the Wide are, though.

Unfortunately, it seems that all teles will
suffer lens separation, down the road. Even the clean ones show that bluish cloudiness in the coating that is, in fact, the start of delamination.

Here is a clean one, with Rolleinar 0.35, for 1499$. I believe this is quite affordable.

Ebay # 234500473590

You make some good points. Any 1950s or even 1960s Rollei will need servicing, and said will cost a goodly amount close to what you pay for it. US$1500 is, to us Aussies, pretty much unaffordable - last year I saw an AUD$2000 Tele for sale in Melbourne, but it had the look of something just dredged up from the Yarra River, so it wasn't really good value. A full CLA in these parts could easily cost $500. The 0.35 Rolleinar is a bit too "close" for my liking for portraits, the 0.70 'bar is far better.

As for the Rollei Wides, the last one I saw on offer was in the early '90s, but then this thread isn't about wide angle photography anyway, so enough said about that.

If I was Bill gates or Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk, I would happily order a new 'flex 2.8, a Tele and a Wide from Rollei in Europe. With not much change left over from the price of a new car after paying for them, but as they say money is only paper anyway, and those guys have buckets of it to play with. Alas, not so me, tho'.

Agree, the Mamiya TLRs are often good bargains, if you can find a "clean" one in good repair. Look out for pinholes in the bellows or dodgy shutters in the older lenses - and the beasts weigh like small cement blocks. But those are good lenses. Even great lenses. The 105 or 135 Sekor would be ideal.

Thankfully, you didn't suggest a Mamiya RB67 with a long lens.

NB23 · May 23, 2022

ozmoose said:
Thankfully, you didn't suggest a Mamiya RB67 with a long lens.

I’m into chick-magnet stuff. Leicas, Rolleis...especially Rolleis. I think My Rolleiflexes could get any random chick to pose nude right on the sidewalk. Those cameras have a special power that’s for sure.

itsdoable · May 23, 2022

This thread has been going for a while, and I find the title somewhat confusing.

1kgcoffee said:
Good example of biometar would the famous Helios 44-2, swirly bokeh, somewhat soft. Specular highlights that overlap. I'm not sure how to describe it, except that I find it very pleasing compared to evenly blurred background....

Helios 44's are copies of Biotar's not Biometars. Biometars are 5 element Planars, copies of the 5-element planars on the Rolleiflex 2.8's - infact, they are infact almost identical in optical construction, it's just the Jena works name for the same lens. Rolleiflex 2.8B's came with a Biometar, so as your original title says, if a TLR is acceptable, there is one with exactly the lens you mentioned. But from the thread so far, this may not be the lens you actually want, as this lens is well corrected, and has minimal swirly bokeh. As with all fast Double Gauss lenses, there is a little of the soap bubble bokeh, the amount depending on how much under corrected spherical aberrations are present in the final design.

But you posted pictures from a Biometar, so if that is what you want, then most Planar lenses will do (those with minimal under corrected spherical aberration). You mention swirly bokeh with those picture, but they do not have much swirly in the bokeh - mostly soap bubble highlights. Most well corrected fast lenses have soap bubble bokeh, undercorrecting the spherical aberrations is a way to reduce the soapiness.

Biotars and Helios-44's are 6 element (4 group) double gauss versions of the Planar, which originated pre WW2, and are similar to the Xenon's of that era. These do have some swirly Bokeh wide open, but no where as much as a Triplet or Petzval type lens. If swirly Bokeh is what you want, then you can look at the Biotar/Helios44 - Triplets - Petzvals, in that order of increasing swirl.

JPD · May 23, 2022

itsdoable said:
This thread has been going for a while, and I find the title somewhat confusing.

Helios 44's are copies of Biotar's not Biometars. Biometars are 5 element Planars, copies of the 5-element planars on the Rolleiflex 2.8's

The Biometar was the first double-Gauss lens on a Rolleiflex. The second was the Schneider Xenotar. It wasn't until well into the production of the 2,8 C Zeiss in Oberkocken had their 2,8/80 Planar ready.

itsdoable · May 23, 2022

JPD said:
The Biometar was the first double-Gauss lens on a Rolleiflex. The second was the Schneider Xenotar. It wasn't until well into the production of the 2,8 C Zeiss in Oberkocken had their 2,8/80 Planar ready.

And...

I should check my note before typing from memory!

My understanding was that Oberkochen was still setting up their new production lines, and could not supply their 5 element Planar, so Rollei went to their old Jena supplier - which was before politics interfered with the supply chain. It depends on who's history you read...

Any of the above lenses will give a similar rendering to the pictures the OP posted. In medium format, the FSU Vega-12 (90mm f/2.8) was also a Biometar copy, but the copies I have are crappy.

Oldwino · May 24, 2022

What you need is a clean version of the Plaubel Roll-Op II with the Anticomar 75/2.8 lens.

Roll-Op

This is not the Rollop by Lipca. The Roll-Op are German folding cameras using 120 film, sold by Plaubel in the 1930s. They were rebadged Balda cameras, some of which incorporated advanced features added by Plaubel. Balda folding cameras were sold by Plaubel from 1933 as the Fix Focus. The...

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MF folder, rangefinder or TLR with biometar like rendering?

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