Metol-Glycin two bath experiment

Relayer · Sep 13, 2011

Hello

Here is some results of my experiment. I'm starting from simple formula:

Bath A:
Sodium sulfite 60g
Glycin 7g
Water 1l

Bath B (one shot):
Potassium carbonate 10g
Water 1l

developing time 5+5min. very tiny image, loss more than 2 stops. so I was modify formula and add some amount of metol:

Bath A:
Sodium sulfite 60g
Glycin 7g
Metol 2g
Water 1l
pH 7.5(!)

Bath B - same

this variant work, but loss 1 stop and give me negatives with very low gamma (about 0.3). max density is low (zone 5 - 0.4, zone 8 - 0.75). this formula can't make density more than 1.6 over fog+base.
next step - increase amount of metol:

Bath A:
Sodium sulfite 60g
Glycin 7g
Metol 7g
Sodium carbonate 7g
Water 1l
pH 8

Bath B - same

reason of adding 7g of sodium carbone is very low pH 7.2 without it. developing Ilford HP5+ 400@400 3+5min. negatives look very nice. max density limited to 1..1.1 over B+F (zones 11..12). grain is fine. but sharpness is open question. follow is scan 2400dpi without any processing (only adjust min/max/gray levels) and some crops

what do you think about this?

Alan Johnson · Sep 13, 2011

The reason why glycin does not work is possibly because metol is much more active.
I have taken the attached approximation from "The Theory of the Photographic Process" Mees & James p361.It show the density obtained with metol and glycin after equal times of development.

Relayer · Sep 13, 2011

Alan Johnson said:
The reason why glycin does not work is possibly because metol is much more active.
I have taken the attached approximation from "The Theory of the Photographic Process" Mees & James p361.It show the density obtained with metol and glycin after equal times of development.

I think that metol and glycin is superadditive. I found very interesting patent US2164280 by Lowe from far 1935. He describe next formula

Metol 8g
Glycin 8g
Sodium sulfite 100g
Ammonium chloride 5g
Water 1l

He state that pH 7.4 is preferable! Also he note that 2nd developer agent must have "low production potencial".

CBG · Sep 13, 2011

I don't recall seeing any reference stating metol and glycin are superadditive. Does anyone have a definitive source on that? I have seen references stating that Glycin and phenidone are superadditive, just not metol/glycin.

Regardless, the final mix seems like a D-23 variant, and looks like it would work fine as a two bath. I wonder if it would act nearly the same with the glycin entirely omitted.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 13, 2011

Relayer said:
I think that metol and glycin is superadditive.

No, they are not superadditive. According to Mason, the primary developing agent is always one of the nitrogenous agents (Metol, Phenidone are examples) and the regenerating agent is usually one of the phenolic compounds (hydroquinone, catechol, ...). Since both Metol and Glycin are in the first group there is no superadditivity.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 13, 2011

Alan Johnson said:
The reason why glycin does not work is possibly because metol is much more active.
I have taken the attached approximation from "The Theory of the Photographic Process" Mees & James p361.It show the density obtained with metol and glycin after equal times of development.

Yes, in a Metol/Glycin developer the faster acting Metol will do most of the developing. A developer based on only Metol and Glycin is really not the best combination of developing agents.

Alan Johnson · Sep 13, 2011

Crawley introduced FX-2 in BJP Jan 6 1961. He did not give much explanation but here's a quote:

"Earlier in this paper the old method of producing sharp negatives for lantern slide making-glycin stand development-was described......On modern slow and medium speed films,glycin with threshold energy supplemented by metol will give a high standard of sharpness and definition,but not marked adjacency effects in the strict definition of raised edge contrast.Such a metol-glycin developer is FX-2,which may be used,diluted, as a stand developer"

He did not actually state it but adjacency effects can be obtained by reduced agitation.

Alan Johnson · Sep 13, 2011

Crawley also notes the metol only FX-1 is not as good as the metol-glycin FX-2 in some respects:
"FX-2 gives a less evened-up picture-not so engraving like-with better retention of faint contrasts,and is also to be used as a stand developer;grain is a little finer....with no real fall off in sharpness and definition..."

Alan Johnson · Sep 13, 2011

The variation of 7g glycin and 2g metol pH 7.5 might give more speed if there was some development in the first bath,eg increase the pH to activate the glycin.It has roughly the same ratio of glycin to metol as FX-2.

eclarke · Sep 13, 2011

Germain...

750cc water
7g metol
70g sodium sulfite
7g paraphenylenediamine
7g glycin
water to 1 liter

Use stock to develop film.

Some ridicule this formula and point to the Edwal formulae but this one really works...

Relayer · Sep 13, 2011

oh. you right - metol and glycin isn't superadditive. but still open question why Lowe mix metol with glycin at pH 7.4? from prev posted here graph glycin can't working at this pH!

Alan Johnson said:
The variation of 7g glycin and 2g metol pH 7.5 might give more speed if there was some development in the first bath,eg increase the pH to activate the glycin.It has roughly the same ratio of glycin to metol as FX-2.

this other way and I think that its not for two bath. may be for some stock dev like 7g glycin + 2g metol + kodalk + 30-50g sulfite
now I'm more interesting use glycin in superadditive combination. from theory must be additive:
1) glycin+pyrogallol
2) glycin+ascorbic acid
3) glycin+pyrocatechin
4) and of course glycin+hydroquinone
maybe (2) and (3) will be interesting at pH 9-9.5 (TEA/Kodalk).

glycin+phenidone isn't additive (from theory). but in russian community well known "phenyglin" formula as the best choice for push more than one stops:

Sodium Sulphite 90 grams
Sodium Carbonate 2 grams
Borax 2 grams
Glycin 5 grams
Phenidone 0.2 gram
Water 1000 ml

I found reference that this formula really from Ilford, but haven't name

Relayer · Sep 13, 2011

wow! Anchell in "The darkroom cookbook" state that phenidone+glycin is superadditive (see p.47)

Ian Grant · Sep 15, 2011

Relayer said:
wow! Anchell in "The darkroom cookbook" state that phenidone+glycin is superadditive (see p.47)

It was the basis of one of Ilfords developers, Ilfosol, but there's poor keeping qualities.

Ian

Relayer · Sep 15, 2011

Ian, see patent US3778267 - modified POTA developer with glycin. same state that phenidon+glycin make superadditivity combination
I haven't Mason, but found reference that:

at page 29 of Mason in which one of the developing agent is not of the dihydroxybenzene type, that is the case of the Phenidone/Glycin system

pls check this statement if possible

removed account4 · Sep 15, 2011

relayer

have you tried your glycin processed with it at 72ºF ( 22.2ºC )
you might find that it works better at warmer temps.

john

Relayer · Sep 15, 2011

I think that high temperature for bw processing isn't good idea. next step in 2bath experiment maybe phenidon+glycin "true 2bath" (no developing in bath A)

removed account4 · Sep 15, 2011

Relayer said:
I think that high temperature for bw processing isn't good idea. next step in 2bath experiment maybe phenidon+glycin "true 2bath" (no developing in bath A)

whatever works for you ...

i've used ansco 130 or its evil twin for film off and on since the mid 1990s
always at 72F ... never had trouble ..

( 72 really isn't a high temperature ... )

good luck !

Relayer · Sep 15, 2011

in my experiment I use temp in range 22-23C - this is my room temperature.

pgomena · Sep 15, 2011

I can't tell you why FX-2 works, only that it does. I actually have used Photographer's Formulary TFX-2, their proprietary variant, and it gives outstanding sharpness with reduced agitation. (One agitation cycle each 3 minutes.) As a stand developer, I've had it produce edge effects with PanF+ that were just too much. It's amazing stuff that I'd like to fine-tune. It is a bit expensive, and it has a limited (6-month) shelf life. I have no idea how it would perform as a two-bath developer. The glycin is supposedly slow-acting and may not have sufficient time to produce good results in a divided development scheme.

Peter Gomena

Peter Gomena

eclarke · Sep 15, 2011

jnanian said:
whatever works for you ...

i've used ansco 130 or its evil twin for film off and on since the mid 1990s
always at 72F ... never had trouble ..

( 72 really isn't a high temperature ... )

good luck !

Yep, Glycin likes a little temp...

Metol-Glycin two bath experiment

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