Metol-2-bath development

[mono]

Hi,

I would like to try Barry Thornton`s Metol-2-bath film developer.
Have you got any experience with it?
How about the agitation scheme?

Thank you!

 

[Marc .]

Hello,

I have developped about 15 films with Thornton's 2 bath recently.
Pretty easy, used it at 24 °C and I could mix TMX, TMY and TMZ in the same batch.

Agitation was standard : I returned the Jobo 4 times (slowly : 10s) every minute (I think it's the Ilford agitation recommendation).

Marc

 

[mono]

Thank you Marc!

Did you use box speed or your personal EI?

 

[Marc .]

Folker,

I used box speed.

I prepared several test negatives with zone I to zone IX exposures for TMX and TMY.
I tested various times (3mn / 4mn / 5mn for both baths), at 24°C and measured the densities with my RH Design Analyser in order to define a development time : 2x 5mn.
This measure is not as precise as with a dedicated densitometer, so I didn't want to be too sophisticated and sticked to box speed.

Once a development time defined it is really easy to process TMax films with a good repeatability with Thornton's 2 bath developer.

I can email you my density measures if you wish (I would just have to tidy up my excel files), that would be a start for your own tests if you want a try.

Marc

 

[Murray Kelly]

I have used Barry Thornton's 2-bath with great success.

However (sigh) the results are dependent on the pH of the second
bath.

One can fiddle with the contrast by using anything from
carbonate to boric acid. Depends what you need or expect.

The 2-bath is so forgiving and simple that it's easy to
forget one can use a degree of control here by varying the
second bath according to your requirements.

It's all a matter of getting a satisfactory routine of
combinations that suit your needs.

I have used carbonate and even higher pH (painters
sugar soap) and atained 2+ stops with 2-bath but was never
happy with pushing the film to such degrees.
It looked, well, clumpy. I'm talking Efke 50 here.

For a 2nd bath I would suggest Borax or Metaborate.

Hope this doesn't confuse you too much!!!!!!!!!!!

Murray

 

[anyhuus]

I can recommend Thornton's 2-bath as well. I only use HP5 and FP4 film, and the HP5 is alwys developed in Thornton's 2-bath. (The FP4 I usually dev. in Beutlers for even higher accutance).

I downrate the HP5 to EI 200. Not because I have made extensive EI tests yet (I planned to long ago, but never got around to it), but simply by default Thornton recommends such downrating. The compensating 2-bath works a little on the soft side, so the extra stop exposure only gives better shadows without causing problems with highlights (within limits, though!).

Dev time for HP5 is 5+5 minutes in 20 centigrades.

I use the "standard" B-bath as specified in "Edge of Darkness", so I have not tried other variants.


Agitation sceme:
Bath A : continuous 1. min, then 10 sec inversion each minute
Bath B : 2 inversions initially, then two inversions every 2. minute

I haven't made any careful studies of bath B agitation, but I have seen a recommendation approx like this: "as little as possible that does not cause streaking". Too much agitation in bath B washes out the A solution soaked up in the emulsion before shadows are fully developed. Too little agitation causes streaking.

I once tried only a couple of inversions initially, and then let i stand the remaining time in bath B. That proved too little. Then I just tried a few inversions every second minute, and it seems to work. I have stayed with this without challenging it further.

I like the 2-bath dev. becaus it seems to last forever (long shelf life, high capacity) and for its forgiving nature with respect to time and temp.
(I never bother to adjust the temp of the dev. bottles, I only maintain 20 centigrades in the darkroom where the chemistry is stored.)
Also, the dev. seems to give good accutance without the grain as prominent as high accutance devs like Rodinal or Beutler.

Thornton derived his 2-bath from an old classic from the 30ies, Heinrich Stöeckler's 2-bath. I've tried this, but I find the accutance far better in Thornton's variant.

I can wholeheartedly recommend Barry Thornton's book "Edge of Darkness". See the chapter "Stöeckler and colour blindness" for details on Thorntons 2-bath. (I can also recommend his first book "Elements" as well.)

 

[mono]

Thank you all so much!
Yes, "Edge of Darkness" is quite inspirational.

I`ll give his 2-bath-dev. a try with your additional hints.

 

[Jordan]

I've been using the Thornton two-bath developer a lot recently, and have been very pleased with the results. I am agitating 45 sec at the beginning of each bath, then 3 inversions every minute for the remainder. After reading this thread, perhaps I'll cut back on the agitation in Bath B.

I've been developing Tri-X and HP5 Plus for 4'30" around 24C. I'm using Thornton's standard formula.

Some examples: http://www.flickr.com/photos/photosensitive/tags/thornton/
From my site: http://www.photosensitive.ca/wp/archives/115

 

[dancqu]

For lots of two bath discussion search this
NG for, stoeckler .

BTW, in a Steve Anchell article via Camera
and Darkroom he presents several two bath
developers. He has added bisulfite to a few
to reduce development in bath A. Dan

 

[gainer]

Some years ago I made a comparison between D-23 and D-23 used as a 2-bath with borax in bath 2. When the slope of the curves was the same, the curves were identical. I concluded that the 2-bath rigamarole was unnecessary. Those were the days of thicker emulsions, which should have favored the 2-bath according to common belief. I'm not trying to stop anyone from using 2-bath technique, but before one proclaims the virtues of the 2-bath, the direct comparison should be made. It will take some experimenting to get the same contrast index from both. A simple way to test, if you have used a step density target for exposing the film, is to contact print the negatives and count the number of steps that show between black and paper white.

 

[Marc .]

...I'm not trying to stop anyone from using 2-bath technique, but before one proclaims the virtues of the 2-bath, the direct comparison should be made. It will take some experimenting to get the same contrast index from both. A simple way to test, if you have used a step density target for exposing the film, is to contact print the negatives and count the number of steps that show between black and paper white.

Which developer would you compare Thornton's 2 baths to ?
It was defined to be simple to use (little precision required for temperature) fine grain, high acutance compensating developer.

Marc.

 

[Marc .]

Contrast control in Thornton's 2 baths with bath B

There are two ways to control contrast with this developer, first by time in the second developer bath (correct me if I'm wrong), and the second is by changing the metaborate quantity in the second bath (higher or lower).

Can you share your experience of the different baths 'B', as Thornton defines them i.e. 7 gr metaborate/litre and 20 gr/l, instead of 12 gr/l,
7 gr/l for N- and 20 gr/l for N+ effects ?

Thank you !

Marc

 

[jim appleyard]

Which developer would you compare Thornton's 2 baths to ?
It was defined to be simple to use (little precision required for temperature) fine grain, high acutance compensating developer.

Marc.

IIRC, Thornton's two bath is a variation of the Stoeckler formula. Thornton adapted it to fit todays thin emulsion films.