Metering winter night scenes.

Mike Kennedy · Dec 9, 2008

We had our first big storm on Sun/Mon and even though it was a chilly -24c I went out to shoot some HP5+ at night.Mid way through the roll I realized that not to many of my winter night shots have turned out well.Problem with metering.
Any quick and easy methods to share?My equipment is kept to a minimum out of necessity ( don't want to freeze my a*s off). One camera,28 ,35 or50mm lens,and a choice of B&W film.Light source is street lamp or store window.
Maybe meter half way between brightest and darkest part of the scene?

Thanks

Steve Smith · Dec 9, 2008

I have a book at home by the black and white printer Gene Nocon. He suggests reducing exposure for night time scenes from that suggested by the meter in order to make it actually look like night time.

If you use the meter suggestion, it will try to make the scene look like a standard daylight lit scene.

I haven't tried this myself but it makes sense to me.

Steve.

Ian Grant · Dec 9, 2008

Gene Nocon hasn't allowed for reciprocity in that statement, and reciprocity can be critical as some film suffer very badly from it others like Tmax hardly suffer from it at all.

The data for HP5 is on the Ilford website here. You'll notice that exposures of around 8 seconds actually require an increase to 25 seconds.

Steve raises another issue, if you're not careful you can make a night scene look like it was almost shot in daylight. I've usually used a spotmeter so placed the exposure correctly, but at a tutorial (while at University) the lecturer asked why one or two images were dark, he felt I should print them as if it was daylight, I pointed out that wasn't what I wanted.

The most important thing is to get the information on the negatives, it's harder to over-expose with night scenes, I never bracket as i'm usually using 5x4, but if you don't know how the film handles take a bit of card with you with the reciprocity notes on it.

Ian

Steve Smith · Dec 9, 2008

Ian Grant said:
Gene Nocon hasn't allowed for reciprocity in that statement.

That's true - and just complicates it further! i.e. Take meter reading, decide how much to under expose for 'night time effect' then increase for reciprocity.

Steve

Ian Grant · Dec 9, 2008

You don't under-expose fr night time effect

Instead you learn how to interpret you camera's meter to give you the correct exposure. It's just the same as metering with a model against a white wall then a black wall, the correct exposure is the same but your camera's meter misinterprets the exposures.

Ian

Dan Henderson · Dec 9, 2008

Turning the zone system on its head has worked well for me for nighttime photographs. My meter will often not read the important shadow area, so instead I meter a very bright highlight, such as a streetlight or bright snow directly underneath the light, and place that on Zone VIII. I then let the shadows take care of themselves. Some will be blank, but after all it is a nighttime shot and so that is acceptable to me. Midtones generally have enough detail to print well; highlights are very bright, but again, it is night so that is acceptable to me. I use Fuji Acros film which does not need reciprocity out to 2 minutes of exposure. There are some wintertime/night shots in my gallery that were exposed this way. I also use a compensating developer and semi stand development which helps control the highlights a bit, and split grade print to control highlight and shadow densities separately.

jp80874 · Dec 9, 2008

You might want to add a tripod and a thermos of something warming to the equipment list. It is very hard to hand hold a camera for eight minutes, especially if your hands are shaking from the cold.

John Powers

Mike Kennedy · Dec 9, 2008

Thats the problem John.
Even messing with a tripod become near impossible when the wind is howling and the temps. are far below freezing.
Maybe rate my film higher? Perhaps push to 1600.

Drew B. · Dec 9, 2008

I would meter for the light areas...and bracket timewise extensively...probably 30 second spans in each direction. These would probably be throw away images but you might get a better idea for the next night you go out.

eclarke · Dec 9, 2008

Mike Kennedy said:
Thats the problem John.
Even messing with a tripod become near impossible when the wind is howling and the temps. are far below freezing.
Maybe rate my film higher? Perhaps push to 1600.

The other thing to remember that when you get to long exposures a single stop can be a long time but you must trust it. A stop addition on 2 minutes is two minutes + reciprocity!! I am attaching a reciprocity chart I use well with TMY and HP5..Evan Clarke

Ian Grant · Dec 9, 2008

The secret is to shooting good night shots is shooting at dusk or just before dawn, as you have the half light. You only have a very short period of time but it's still possible to work hand held with HP5 and it's before reciprocity kicks in.

In Canada I'd guess you have 30-40 minutes of twilight, more if you're in the north.

Ian

keithwms · Dec 9, 2008

Mike rating higher is a double edged sword. Yes it may allow you to get shorter exposures and thus avoid some of the reciprocity issues but it can also give you less ability to rein in the contrast. If blowing lights is a concern, then you really might even go the other way and pull... or use a different developer or adjust development to permit the largest SBR... maybe even preflash...

I think you first have to clarify what you want, actually. Do you want your street light in the frame and not blown, but you also want shadow detail? Or are you going for blown, glowing lights? Do you want what the eyes sees (somewhat lower contrast than is actually there), or do you want, you know, Brassaï?

Ian raises an excellent point that having a wee bit of ambient light really, really helps.

Mike Kennedy · Dec 9, 2008

Great points Ian & Keith.
I will plan my next winter outing in the evening or early morning and work with available light to improve the overall appearance of my prints.I want shadow details,not negs. blown out because of over exposure.

Sirius Glass · Dec 9, 2008

I have found that the Calculator for Night Light Exposures(author S.P. Martin) published in Popular Photography in 1964. It has provided proper exposures for night photography for me for years. A copy of one is available at http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Cameras/JiffyCalc.pdf

Steve

Paul Cocklin · Dec 10, 2008

Wrap those metal tripod legs with electical tap. No more hands frozen to the metal.

Sirius Glass · Dec 10, 2008

Sirius Glass said:
I have found that the Calculator for Night Light Exposures(author S.P. Martin) published in Popular Photography in 1964. It has provided proper exposures for night photography for me for years. A copy of one is available at http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Cameras/JiffyCalc.pdf

Steve

Improved version in plastic which is called "Day & Night Exposure Guide" at www.fotosharp.com 800 361 6341

Steve

Metering winter night scenes.

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