Metering night scenes

Removed Account · Jun 13, 2007

I am wanting to try some night photography but am having a difficult time figuring how to decide on exposure times. I just received my Sekonic L-488 spot meter, but below a certain amount of light nothing registers on it. In all fairness it is pretty dark, but not a problem seeing with the naked eye. I am wondering how to decide on an exposure when there is nothing available that is bright enough to meter? I would guess that beyond a point, even without figuring in reciprocity, that a few minutes is such a small part of the exposure that one can be off by a fair bit before noticeably affecting the image. I am thinking about things such as beach scenes at 2 am with zero artificial light, although I will try flashlight painting at some point. I'm starting to ramble because it's 2:30 and WAY past bedtime, but I think you guys can figure out what I am asking Thanks for the help, as always!

- Justin

Drew B. · Jun 13, 2007

Is the light from the moon....or from a street light? What else is that meter capable of? Will it take incident readings? If you're using a roll film camera...take an exposure of 15 sec, 30 sec, 45 sec and so on.... and keep notes. Sorry, i'm rambling also....wait for the knowledable people to wake up and provide the answers...

Dan Henderson · Jun 13, 2007

When doing night shots where there is some artificial light from streetlights, etc. I meter the brightest highlight where I want detail with a spotmeter and place it on zone 7 or 8, and let the shadows take care of themselves. And, last fall I was doing some night photography in full moon conditions. Using f/11 or f/8, I was getting good results with Fuji Acros (which does not require reciprocity correction) at about 8 minutes. Exposure for night photography is not an exact science. As Drew suggested, bracket liberally and see what you get.

Pinholemaster · Jun 13, 2007

"In all fairness it is pretty dark, ..."

If you have no moon and no man-made light, then there is probably not enough light to expose the film. Remember, 'photo - graph' - drawing with LIGHT. Film is not like out human eyes.

When it is 'pretty dark' your exposure will probably be in the hours to pick up the star tracks in the night sky.

One thing you could do is paint your own light in with a strong flashlight, or pop a strobe on subjects you want to illuminate.

Lee L · Jun 13, 2007

Much of the information you want is here:
http://www.thenocturnes.com/

There are other suggestions and pointers to other information on several threads on APUG if you do a search.

Lee

naeroscatu · Jun 13, 2007

You can also use the Ultimate Exposure Computer on Fred Parker's website; link at "http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm
I find it to be very useful specially on low light or night conditions, hence no exposure meter required.

Sirius Glass · Jun 13, 2007

There was a night exposure guide in Popular Photography in the 1961 time frame with an update about 1963. It has a slide rule with 20 scene [1961] or 26 scenes [1963]. Choose a scene and set the film ASA next to it with the slide. A range of shutter speeds and f/openings will provide a range of choices for the exposure. The slide rule provided receprocity corrections as well as information for star trail exposures. The range of scenes include rooms, bright street scenes, dim street scenes, flood lit buildings and monuments, Niagara Fall with white light and colored light, Moon lit scenes ...

I used the settings with slide film and got good exposures without bracketing! Look through my earlier posts to see the Washington Monument and Reflecting Pool shot from the columnade of the Lincoln Memorial with the Moon light casting column shadows on the wall and floor. This was shot with Ektachrome 64 Tungsten. Photographed in February 1963.

If you are unable to locate the original article you can purchase one from the patent holder @ http://abetterphotoguide.bizhosting.com/day_night_exposure_calculator.html
I believe the cost was $10 to $20.

Steve Graff

Stoo Batchelor · Jun 13, 2007

Hi Justin

You may be interested in this:

http://www.blackcatphotoproducts.com/guide.html.................also see post below.

I have used it successfully with Velvia 50, with exposures up to and over 3 mins. it tells you the exposure and the bracket either side of that exposure, and it makes allowances for R.L Failure.

It looks complicated but is simple to use, giving you a list of scenes, i,e; half moon, landscape with half moon, bus train interior etc.

A bit expensive but if your crap at maths, well worth it.

Regards

Stoo

Stoo Batchelor · Jun 13, 2007

Also more here:

http://www.jimdoty.com/Tips/Exposure_Guide/exposure_guide.html

Stoo

percepts · Jun 13, 2007

you could always buy yourself a real light meter which is capable of metering in the so called dark.

Sirius Glass · Jun 13, 2007

percepts said:
you could always buy yourself a real light meter which is capable of metering in the so called dark.

1) The exposure slide is less expensive.
2) Unless a spot meter is used, the FOV of the meter will average the dark areas with the light and yeild an overexposed photo.

I don't know maybe its just me ... or could it be my over forty years experience in low light level photography. I am sure there is someone in this forum with more experience and a different opinion. Just pick the answer you want.

Steve

percepts · Jun 13, 2007

I was being a little facetious but that obviously escaped you.

and if you had read it properly you would have seen that there is a 1 degree spot accessory.

Chan Tran · Jun 13, 2007

percepts said:
you could always buy yourself a real light meter which is capable of metering in the so called dark.

Like which one? The one in your link can measure down to 1 lux, impressive huh? However, a beach scene at night without any artificial lighting is much lower than 1 lux.

percepts · Jun 13, 2007

how much lower?

Arglebargle · Jun 13, 2007

http://mkaz.com/photo/tools/moonlight.html

This may be of use, I used this last time I did some night exposures. Usually I go out before dawn and there is just a hint of light in the sky. Most of the time I just guess, and then double my guess, and keep the shutter open until I freak out that I'm going to overexpose the film. I haven't had any overexposure problems yet, but lots of underexposure.

Helen B · Jun 14, 2007

Chan Tran said:
Like which one? The one in your link can measure down to 1 lux, impressive huh?...

Well, no. That's quite bright. The humble Profisix can measure down to around 0.008 lux, as can a few other exposure meters. One of the things I've always found strange about the Spectra is that it reads down to f/0.35 - one stop into the impossible.

Best,
Helen

MattKing · Jun 14, 2007

Helen B said:
Well, no. That's quite bright. The humble Profisix can measure down to around 0.008 lux, as can a few other exposure meters. One of the things I've always found strange about the Spectra is that it reads down to f/0.35 - one stop into the impossible.

Best,
Helen

Helen:

I think "one stop into the impossible" may make a great signature line - may I borrow it?

Matt

Matthew Gorringe · Jun 14, 2007

I'm one for keeping notes and experimenting.

If you use a meter you would ideally want to be able to meter the shadows and then you have to work out reciprocity failure etc. When doing night photography I leave the meter at home even though it gives a reading much of the time.

The thing about night photography is that it's very hard to overexpose the film. The more exposure the better. I always use 400 speed film and expose for 8min at F16 or the equivalent for urban scenes that are reasonably well lit. For moonlit scenes I'd double that.

Things like light sources will be overexposed with almost any reasonable exposure so if you're doing B+W and developing your own film you just ignore them and deal with them in development.

Roger Hicks · Jun 14, 2007

A useful little trick for incident light metering, where the meter isn't sensitive enough to meter, is to point the bare meter cell at the light source (no incident light adapter) and give 5x the exposure indicated.

The truth is that often, a very wide range of exposures is acceptable at night: 3 stops or maybe more, even with slide film. Sure, the effects are different, but no medium can convincingly represent the full brightness range of many night scenes, so it's a question of which compromise you prefer.

If you don't bracket, you'll probably be satisfied with the one shot you do take. If you do bracket, you'll see what I mean. I'm thinking of typical street/night scenes, which I've been photographing for decades on slide film, under all conditions from Himalayan villages to the Champs Elysées.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

Steve Smith · Jun 14, 2007

I read a section in a book (I think it was by Gene Nocon) about night time metering which seemed to make sense at the time.
It said that if you take a light reading at night and effectively get the reading for an 18% grey scene, you should actually reduce the exposure by one or two stops to make the near blacks actually near black rather than the mid grey that the meter would suggest.

I have not tried this and probably never will but it did appear to be logical to me.

Steve.

Philippe-Georges · Jun 14, 2007

Dear Cafeharrar,

For 'work in the dark' as I use to call it, I trusted on the famous old Pantax LX metering system.
Just set it on automatic, set the aperture, lock up the mirror, fire, have a walk (ore a cup of coffee) and come back a wile later.
This is what I did for the attached picture. The situation was rather out of common. This picture was taken in the basement of an nearly out of business Jenever distillery in Brussels. The barrels have 'always' be laying there as well as the three low Watt dusty bulbs were hanging.
I was lucky the power was still on...
This shot was done with an SMC 20 mm 1:2.8 set at F11 and exposed a little more than about 20 minutes I guess, on Sensia 100 and no compensation for the Schwartzschild effect, just the let the LX do.
I do not know how this little thing managed it, but it looked rather good and was used in a book on Jenever, as a A3 format fly-leaf.
Later I tried something similar with the Technorama. I just put the LX next to it and fire the camera's at the same moment, and shut the Technorama when the LX stopped, perfectly simple!

This is perhaps why the LX is so popular in astrophotography?

Good luck in the dark,

Philippe

HerrBremerhaven · Jun 14, 2007

One thing I do with 4x5 night city images is meter with the reflective fitting on my Sekonic L-358 (instead of the incidence dome). The field of view of the reflective fitting is about 50º or so. Then I might adjust for reciprocity, based upon prior use of the usual films I shoot, Kodak E100VS for most scenes.

Similar to the Pentax LX trick, a Nikon FE has an odd flaw in that the meter will not really time out until (unless the battery goes flat) it gets an entire scene at whatever exposure time it deems correct. I have let the camera decide shutter speed in aperture priority auto, even running as long as a 46 minutes exposure. While it does not react to changing light like an LX (unless the light hitting the back of the viewfinder changes), I have found it to be very accurate for night photography usage. Sometimes the FE goes in the bag with my 4x5.

Roger also pointed out that many exposures at night can work in a range of stops. I have discovered this largely through trial and error, though essentially within a certain range just about any long exposure will get you some kind of an image. It only really gets tougher in shots under one minute exposure, at least in my experience.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

Jim Noel · Jun 15, 2007

FirePhoto said:
When doing night shots where there is some artificial light from streetlights, etc. I meter the brightest highlight where I want detail with a spotmeter and place it on zone 7 or 8, and let the shadows take care of themselves. And, last fall I was doing some night photography in full moon conditions. Using f/11 or f/8, I was getting good results with Fuji Acros (which does not require reciprocity correction) at about 8 minutes. Exposure for night photography is not an exact science. As Drew suggested, bracket liberally and see what you get.

I completely agree with this. I use nothing but Acros at night because of its characteristics. PLacing the highlights on VII or VIII and letting the rest fall where they may causes the image to lok like a night photograph.
All of these fancy gimmicks for computing night exposures are a waste of time and money in my mind.

Peter Williams · Jun 15, 2007

HerrBremerhaven said:
One thing I do with 4x5 night city images is meter with the reflective fitting on my Sekonic L-358 (instead of the incidence dome).

This is exactly what I do as well. I shoot with Acros and use the given values from the meter. Works great for me.

Thorney · Jun 15, 2007

Quantum Calcu-Lite XP1

This meter the Quantum Calcu-Lite XP1 is the best low light meter you can get your hands on. It will meter for starlight! I bought one on eBay last year for about $80 USD. The meter is not made any more but has a great reputation among the low-light crowd.

Now at the risk of being branded an APUG heretic... I've abandoned film for night work in favour of the DSLR (D200) as the results are fantastic. Metering, colour balance, reciprocity are things I don't need to bother with. I shoot everything from 35mm to 8x10 and wouldn't endorse digital (even though I believe the chip is actually analogue - so maybe I'm forgiven here) lightly.

Check out www.cambridgeincolour.com for some excellent night photos and really extensive technical information about night shooting.

f16 at 2minutes is my starting point (rating at 100iso - no sense boosting up to higher iso as noise becomes a problem) for a night shot with some ambient street light etc.

Good luck,
Thorney

Metering night scenes

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