Metering for B&W 35mm film

Taz777 · Sep 11, 2019

Please excuse the beginner question!

Having almost got the hang of using my new-to-me light meter, I was wondering if the values it produces will apply to black and white film? Or do I need to make any adjustments as it might be camera dependent?

Ariston · Sep 11, 2019

It is only dependent on ISO. Black and white and color film meter the same, though some handle shadows/highlights better than others. If you are using negative film, just overexpose by a stop and you should be happy.

Ariston · Sep 11, 2019

I"m sorry - I see you are shooting digital... perhaps you were asking if metering is the same between digital and film. The answer is yes. However, with negative film (color or b&w) it is better to err on the side of overexposure, whereas with digital it is often better to err on the side of underexposure.

Welcome to the film club. You are going to love it.

Sirius Glass · Sep 11, 2019

1) Shoot box speed unless you have a really go reason not to.
2) Do not include the sky in the light reading, that will just throw the reading off.
3) See if you can find a manual for it at https://www.butkus.org/chinon/flashes_meters.htm. If you find a download useful, please send him $3US since he donates his time and money to provide us the free download service.
4) If you find the readings are off [check against Sunny 16 (in the UK Sunny 11) and other meters] get the light meter calibrated.

Luckless · Sep 11, 2019

For most black and white film there will not be any additional adjustments from what your meter tells you as compared to working in colour [or digital really], however there are a few edge cases to still keep in mind.

1. Remember to account for any contrast filters you're using if you're not metering through the lens. And these may also require additional 'to taste' adjustments. Some will say a deep red filter is a stop and a half, others say two stops, etc. [Take notes and experiment, and decide what really works for you. Other people's opinions are a great starting point, but it is ultimately up to you.]

If you're in strongly coloured light or photographing strongly coloured objects, then the adjustment needed may differ, or your filter colour/intensity may not be well suited to the scene.

2. Watch out if you dive into the fun and exciting world of old style black and white film that is blue/green sensitive rather than full spectrum sensitive. This stuff isn't the typical mainstream black and white film, so you're unlikely to deal with this, but the fact it exists is important to know and easily glossed over. Remember to do some reading or spend time experimenting if you start using stuff like paper negatives, medical/x-ray film, or something with 'ortho' in the name.

If you're metering off something that is mostly coloured with something that your film isn't sensitive to, then you might not be getting the results you're expecting at first...

Taz777 · Sep 11, 2019

Thank you all. Just to clarify, my question was for 35mm film analogue cameras.

Ariston · Sep 11, 2019

Taz777 said:
Thank you all. Just to clarify, my question was for 35mm film analogue cameras.

Yes - the ISO on your digital camera is actually based on what analog film cameras have used since almost the very beginning. You cannot change the ISO speed on the same roll of film. Whatever ISO film you choose, that is the ISO you are stuck with for the duration of the roll of film.

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 11, 2019

Take a look at this.
http://fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

markbau · Sep 11, 2019

Best advice I could give is to get yourself a handheld incident light meter. When I was starting out I had a high failure rate using the in-camera meter on my K1000. There are too many variables when trying to average a scene, too many dark tones you will overexpose, too many light tones you will underexpose. An incident meter removes all those variables and simply measures the light falling on the subject and is not swayed by the subject. If you don't believe me, try metering a predominantly white scene with an in-camera meter, good luck getting a decent exposure without compensating which is hard to do when you are just starting out.

Sirius Glass · Sep 11, 2019

Ariston said:
Yes - the ISO on your digital camera is actually based on what analog film cameras have used since almost the very beginning. You cannot change the ISO speed on the same roll of film. Whatever ISO film you choose, that is the ISO you are stuck with for the duration of the roll of film.

But if one was using a medium format camera with interchangeable backs, one could change film and thus film speed mid roll. Or switch between color and black & white.

Ariston · Sep 11, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
But if one was using a medium format camera with interchangeable backs, one could change film and thus film speed mid roll. Or switch between color and black & white.

Shhhh! Those are secret techniques... like sunny 16 metering...

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 12, 2019

A light meter is just like any other tool. The user get's better using it through experience. Transparency film is less tolerant to inaccurate exposure while negative film is more forgiving. The other side of metering involves testing film. Some photographers don't shoot a film "Box speed" because they have a preferred look that shooting at the rated ASA doesn't give them. Testing is boring but necessary. No suggestions could substitute experience.

Ko.Fe. · Sep 12, 2019

Ditch light meter if you could get light meter app on your phone.
You could meter anywhere in the frame and see result right away.
Handheld meter is more faster, but you never really know what exactly you are measuring.

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 12, 2019

Ko.Fe. said:
Ditch light meter if you could get light meter app on your phone.
You could meter anywhere in the frame and see result right away.
Handheld meter is more faster, but you never really know what exactly you are measuring.

With some meter apps, you get a preview of the shot also. Accurate too.

NB23 · Sep 13, 2019

Ko.Fe. said:
Ditch light meter if you could get light meter app on your phone.
You could meter anywhere in the frame and see result right away.
Handheld meter is more faster, but you never really know what exactly you are measuring.

??
You always know what you are measuring with a lightmeter. The dome, with how the light falls on it tells you the whole story.

Ko.Fe. · Sep 13, 2019

NB23 said:
??
You always know what you are measuring with a lightmeter. The dome, with how the light falls on it tells you the whole story.

It doesn’t show you how it will looks like on final result, nor it allows you to measure absolutely everything in the frame.
Some smart people used to use digital camera to determine exposure for LF. These apps replaced it.
If you want to read falling light stories it is fine, I just see no practical reason for it.
On my prints.

NB23 · Sep 13, 2019

Ko.Fe. said:
It doesn’t show you how it will looks like on final result, nor it allows you to measure absolutely everything in the frame.
Some smart people used to use digital camera to determine exposure for LF. These apps replaced it.
If you want to read falling light stories it is fine, I just see no practical reason for it.
On my prints.

Well... those smart people weren’t really smart after all because it is a well known fact that the ISO standard on digital is nowhere near the exactitude that it has to have on film.
It is not a strict standard on digital and this is why a digital camera can give vastly varying results of up to a stop difference versus a laboratory/factory calibrated meter.

This is simple comon knowledge.

What you are refering to is the fact that digital cameras have replaced polaroid backs which purpose was exactly that: seeing the results beforehand. But it was a very slow process, just as using an iphone to judge a scene: not as accurate as a meter and really gets in the way of the pace.

But if you prefer iphone apps then good for you, it’s all in personal preference anyway.

Kodachromeguy · Sep 13, 2019

NB23 said:
Well... those smart people weren’t really smart after all because it is a well known fact that the ISO standard on digital is nowhere near the exactitude that it has to have on film.
It is not a strict standard on digital and this is why a digital camera can give vastly varying results of up to a stop difference versus a laboratory/factory calibrated meter.

Also, different companies implement their metering standard on digital cameras different ways. That is why the "experts" (fanboys) on the infamous Dpreview have long tirades about Brand XYZ "cheating on their ISO." Some of them really get off on that stuff.

removed account4 · Sep 14, 2019

Taz777 said:
Thank you all. Just to clarify, my question was for 35mm film analogue cameras.

Hi Taz777
if i could make a suggestion ... shoot a roll and bracket your exposures. plug in your iso into your light meter, and shoot the first exposure exactly like the meter says
lets say 1/125s @ f8 then make 2 other exposures the first 1 full fstop more light and the last one 1 full stop less light ( if you want you can just adjust your shutter to be 1speed
slower and 1 speed faster it is the same thing ). do this in varied conditions &c. then develop your film. if you develop it yourself maybe expose 3 rolls this way if you send to a lab
just do 1. if you get lab prints look at them they should tell you what to set your iso at in your camera and give you an idea how a thin or dense negative at that lab is printed. if you scan your film
you probably want a thinner negative ... if you develop the film yourself develop the first roll at whatever the time chart says to develop it, develop the second roll at 30% more time and the last roll at 30% less time and make contact sheets of your film and compare your results.
while iso values and processing times are determined in a lab nothing is preventing you from determining what you should expose your film at and develop it at because
your camera might not be calibrated and your speeds drifted from factory specs, your meter might need to be calibrated, you agitated your film not like a machine, or the lab does their thing ( they are a wild card ) ...
you might look for henry horenstein's manual on black and white photography too, he is a great teacher and wrote a fantastic manual.
Don't forget to have fun
john

markbau · Sep 14, 2019

Kodachromeguy said:
Also, different companies implement their metering standard on digital cameras different ways. That is why the "experts" on the infamous Dpreview have long tirades about Brand XYZ "cheating on their ISO." Some of them really get off on that stuff.

It would be easy to find out if they are cheating with a calibrated test or, even simpler, go out on a sunny day and see if the Sunny16 rule works for the digital camera. I've only owned one digital SLR (Pentax K-x) and have found that when metering with a handheld meter it agrees with what the camera is doing.

NB23 · Sep 14, 2019

markbau said:
It would be easy to find out if they are cheating with a calibrated test or, even simpler, go out on a sunny day and see if the Sunny16 rule works for the digital camera. I've only owned one digital SLR (Pentax K-x) and have found that when metering with a handheld meter it agrees with what the camera is doing.

The problem is that our brain is cheating. Your test would be excellent if it was performed with a gray card, which could be fully measured and compared
.
If it’s performed in real-life situation scenes it would be likely that we never notice the slight exposure errors. A good example is that if we look at an underexposed image long enough we will come to accept it as perfectly exposed.

Gray card is the way to go.

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 14, 2019

At a more advanced level of metering and testing, advanced photographers can use meters to help them pre-visualize a scene. The old photographers rule of "Expose for shadows. Develop for highlights". A meter can be used to place shadows. The meter is also used to check the range of light to adjust highlights through development if it's possible. But for some, the sunny 16 rule is just fine. No right or wrongs here. Being an old dog of photography, the digital camera is an amazing meter that's better than an polaroid.

David Luttmann · Sep 15, 2019

Kodachromeguy said:
Also, different companies implement their metering standard on digital cameras different ways. That is why the "experts" (fanboys) on the infamous Dpreview have long tirades about Brand XYZ "cheating on their ISO." Some of them really get off on that stuff.

The fanboys at the sewer of a forum simply will twist anything to support their brand. PWPhotography and MILCMan are two of the worst for it.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 15, 2019

Taz777 said:
Please excuse the beginner question!

Having almost got the hang of using my new-to-me light meter, I was wondering if the values it produces will apply to black and white film? Or do I need to make any adjustments as it might be camera dependent?

no adjustment required. I overexpose B&W film by 2/3stop from boxspeed to get more shadow detail.

ME Super · Sep 16, 2019

markbau said:
Best advice I could give is to get yourself a handheld incident light meter. When I was starting out I had a high failure rate using the in-camera meter on my K1000. There are too many variables when trying to average a scene, too many dark tones you will overexpose, too many light tones you will underexpose. An incident meter removes all those variables and simply measures the light falling on the subject and is not swayed by the subject. If you don't believe me, try metering a predominantly white scene with an in-camera meter, good luck getting a decent exposure without compensating which is hard to do when you are just starting out.

I have the light meter app on my phone. It agrees closely with the meter in my SLR for an average scene. My phone doesn't support the "incident" mode of the light meter app, so when I want an "incident" reading, I fake it out by using the reflective mode, putting the palm of my hand in the same light as my subject, and aim my phone at my palm. Take a reading, then open up 1 stop. This method has never failed me, and it works for B&W negative, color negative, B&W reversal, and color reversal films. The best part is, the paid version of the app cost me the princely sum of 2.99 USD, and it works great on my Samsung J3 (2016) phone.

Metering for B&W 35mm film

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