Message for Simon of Harman/ Ilford

In recent years it has not been so much a question of AP's position being "Digital good, Analogue bad" as "Analogue's existence no longer recognised" It used to do an annual B&W issue in deference to the origins of the profession and hobby that spawned its existence but as someone else alluded to, in the most recent issue on B&W it didn't even acknowledge the existence of analogue.

Yes of course it will report "new news" on analogue such as a new film but even here its coverage is minimal. I suppose its position is why waste space dealing with matters that concern practically none of our readers. It's business motto might as well be "Analoguers are not our future" After all business is business as they say but it does irk me that with almost every new photographer's work that's reviewed there seems to be the obligatory sentence about how much his or her professional life had been transformed when he/she made the conversion to digital. The " Lo, I have seen the light!" moment.

I still browse AP in my local library and I applaud its stand on photographers' rights but it's got to the stage where I go straight to the Roger Hicks article at the back as there is almost nothing else worth reading. So misrepresentation of an Ilford spokesperson on analogue matters doesn't come as any surprise.

Sorry Alex I just don't recognise the AP magazine as you describe it. Maybe it does a better, more balanced version further South where you are :

pentaxuser

Thanks for speaking up Simon. it's definitely appreciated. I'm not surprised it was a misquote and I apologize if I inflated any sense of truth to it actually being said.

Simon R Galley said:

Dear All,

I note with some concern the 'feedback' regarding Steven's interview with AP. First let me state that he did not say home darkroom 'has gone' . What Steven actually commented was that the levels of home darkroom in the UK had 'diminished'. I think we can all agree that this is a sad fact. We at HARMAN are disappointed that he has been misquoted in this way.

This interview was conducted primarily regarding our UK market and our own UK photo processing service, especiallty in relation to the increase in monochrome films being sent to photofinishers to be processed rather than being processed at home and those films being imaged onto colour photo paper rather than original monochrome photo paper.

I have known Steven Brierley for 23 years, indeed, he actually recruited me into ILFORD as it was then. A more passionate advocate of monochrome photography and especially the art and craft of monochrome silver gelatin printing I have yet to meet.

The home darkroom has clearly not gone away, nor will it, and whilst it has diminished it is, and will remain one of the key cornerstones of the ILFORD Photo / HARMAN tcehnology business, every decision we ever make about products or our marketing strategy addresses this segment as a key element of our current and future buisness, it is , without a shadow of a doubt as close to our heartsas it is to yours.

It is also why we are a very proud sponsor of this site, and why we take heed about what is said on it and who is saying it...you, our customers.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

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Seems I was mistook and owe Steven an apology, which is given unreservedly.

Thank you Simon for clearing the matter. I should of known better but in these troubled times one tends to fear the worst.

Regards Paul.

Simon R Galley said:

I like the idea of a 'newsletter' let me speak to marketing :

JB Thanks for the offer of help...

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

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A newsletter is a good idea, however your company already has a website that could serve this function. I checked the "news" section and it has not been updated in a very long time.

If you need website help let me know.

Eric

Simon R Galley said:

Dear All,

I note with some concern the 'feedback' regarding Steven's interview with AP. First let me state that he did not say home darkroom 'has gone' . What Steven actually commented was that the levels of home darkroom in the UK had 'diminished'. I think we can all agree that this is a sad fact. We at HARMAN are disappointed that he has been misquoted in this way.

This interview was conducted primarily regarding our UK market and our own UK photo processing service, especially in relation to the increase in monochrome films being sent to photo finishers to be processed rather than being processed at home and those films being imaged onto colour photo paper rather than original monochrome photo paper.

I have known Steven Brierley for 23 years, indeed, he actually recruited me into ILFORD as it was then. A more passionate advocate of monochrome photography and especially the art and craft of monochrome silver gelatin printing I have yet to meet.

The home darkroom has clearly not gone away, nor will it, and whilst it has diminished it is, and will remain one of the key cornerstones of the ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology business, every decision we ever make about products or our marketing strategy addresses this segment as a key element of our current and future business, it is , without a shadow of a doubt as close to our hearts as it is to yours.

It is also why we are a very proud sponsor of this site, and why we take heed about what is said on it and who is saying it...you, our customers.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

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Hello Simon, nothing expansive, expensive, and time consuming is needed, I value your comments here more than a corporate voice of those not tuned in to the needs of the home photographer or a magazine that appears to have poor journalistic judgment.

In a recessionary time every penny is spend with careful consideration. Sure there are some films available that are less expensive but expecting some manufacturing defects is counterproductive and a false economy. That's why I choose Ilford films, like Kodak I can expect the quality to be top notch every time. I have never had an Ilford film, or Kodak for that matter, to have a defect.

Continuity in film quality like your voice here is greatly appreciated, whether in the studio, or in the Arctic or the tropics the Ilford product is the constant that can be depended on.

On another thread, yesterday, someone asked about PanF+ 120, I opened up my notebook, turned to PanF and had the process right there, last confirmed at the Hover Dam, Arches, and the Valley of Fire.

Thank you,
Curt

Just incase anyone from Ilford is watching this thread, one other note.

Here in the US I have never seen a 5 litre storage container. Please take note.

Thank you.

PeteZ8 said:

Just incase anyone from Ilford is watching this thread, one other note.

Here in the US I have never seen a 5 litre storage container. Please take note.

Thank you.

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I order rapid fix and multigrade paper developer in Canada in 5 l containers, and I'm almost sure my supplier gets them from the US. Just checked, Freestyle carries both of the above.

johnnywalker said:

I order rapid fix and multigrade paper developer in Canada in 5 l containers, and I'm almost sure my supplier gets them from the US. Just checked, Freestyle carries both of the above.

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Are you talking about concentrate to make a 5L batch, or a 5L "brown bottle"?

One thing that drives me nuts with Ilford chemistry is everything seems to be in concentrates to "makes 5 litres". Kodak chemistry, on the other hand, is mixed to "make 1 gallon". I have dozens of 1 gallon chemistry storage bottles, but absolutely no 5L ones. This means I have to split up batches, etc. It isn't the end of the world, but it can be a little annoying always having to do conversions, or make smaller batches more often.

Now would that be a 3.9l gallon, or a 4.5l gallon ?

At least with a metric litre, there is no confusion as to whose version of the gallon is being used..

depending on your point of view, the US is an upholder of the traditional values of pounds gallons and inches, and doesn't believe in the new fangled metric system, or its behind the rest of the world on this...

I would say that outside the US, SI units are more widely used, and the US insistance on still using "Imperial" units is a little out of step.

(That said I use Kg and Litres for work, (Chemical industry) Imperial at home, and a mix of both when I check packaging for the US market.... Go figure that one)

The newsletter would be an excellent idea; a quarterly or so email that is sent out to everyone on the mailing list, detailing new products, changes to existing products, and upcoming events in the Ilford world.

Granted Ilford doesn't change products often, so maybe quarterly won't work. I would love to see Ilford get more involved in the media side of the web; Twitter, Facebook, etc. Freestyle is on Twitter and they reply to your tweets. As is Adorama.

There are a TON of hipster kids out there these days shooting Holgas with black and white Ilford film. Speak to them, and let them know Ilford is a company that cares about your business and is not some faceless void like so many other companies in the world.

I will be an Ilford film user for a long time to come. I love FP4 and Pan F.

pentaxuser said:

Sorry Alex I just don't recognise the AP magazine as you describe it. Maybe it does a better, more balanced version further South where you are

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A quick look along the staff pages of AP shows eight regular names. Of these, two are journalists that fit your earlier depiction of people whose background is journalistic with a photographic interest. The other six are listed as current or former professional photographers with a journalistic interest : they aren't circuit journalists working a spell in a photo magazine in between 'What Car?' and 'Which Mortgage?' assignments. It's also been AP's practice, for as long as I can remember, to have columnists who were photo-journalists from the mainstream press from as far back as the days when Fleet Street really was located in Fleet Street, and Victor Blackman wrote a column titled 'Cameravaria'. (I hope I'm not the only one who remembers VB!)

One of the journalists who appear to be non-professional photographers on the list I mentioned is, indeed, the one who wrote the article that spawned this topic, Chris Cheesman (and if I've under-stated his photographic background, I'm happy to be set right), so there's perhaps a nod to your argument there.

Now, notwithstanding your argument about writers who are not primarily photographers -- and it has some merit -- my reading of the article is that the issue here isn't one of lack of photographic knowledge, but a lapse in effective communication. The article in the main reflects the upbeat message coming from Harman Technology, even though I too did a double-take at the bit about the home processing base having "gone". I think it clumsily expressed rather than recklessly misleading.

The review columns of AP don't show 'digital good, analogue bad' ; like all magazines, it can only review what manufacturers are producing and offering for review, and that's almost entirely digital. How many film cameras are Pentax/Samsung making for Pentax users? Nevertheless, AP also carries an irregular but fairly frequent column on classic cameras, and what's more, it's aimed principally at users, rather than collectors.

With book clubs and magazines, I've alway followed a 'rule of thirds' : I won't join a book/record club unless I want at least a third of the items in the introductory offer, and I won't buy a magazine unless I'm interested in at least a third of the articles. My last book club membership ended fifteen years ago, and the only two magazines I now take are BBC Music and AP. Whenever AP fails the 'rule of thirds', I'll cancel my subscription, but that horizon seems a long way off yet for me.

So, notwithstanding your thoughtfully expressed and reasoned opinion, I'll equally respectfully assert that I don't share it. Besides, it wouldn't do to have a forum where all threads ended up with "I agree", "Me too", "Oh, right, what next?"...

Aurum said:

I would say that outside the US, SI units are more widely used, and the US insistance on still using "Imperial" units is a little out of step.

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Whilst the driving force behind metric is irresistible, in scientific terms at least, there's scope for at least a couple of hurrahs for Imperial measure.

The advantage of metric is related entirely to our counting system being based on 10. Other than being finger numbers, that's it. As I see it, when it comes to manipulating number, most people, at a primitive level, work in twos and threes, and at most can visualise about four objects without having to count or divide the picture into subpictures containing four or fewer objects.

Think about what you do when you're cooking or baking. You halve things, you double things, you divide dough into two then four, or two then three to make six. It's very unusual to divide things into fives. Imperial gives 'mind-sized' numbers. Look at the pound weight. You can halve 16 oz and still have nice round numbers, and halve it again and again and again, and still have whole numbers. That is intuitively so much easier to work with than 500/250/125/62 and so on.

So often, I see recipes with quantities like 120g and 30g and 450g, which have clearly been 'translated' directly from Imperial measure originals.

Sure, the system breaks down a little with 14lb to the stone, though our US friends generally ignore the stone as a measure, and the Imperial pint has 20 fl.oz. where the US pint has 16.

When I'm making bread, or pancakes, I use Imperial, which is easily the best way of measuring cooking quantities. The numbers are bite-sized, in more ways than one. When I'm making up D&P stuff, it's metric. Well, I don't drink D76. Not unless I'm desperate.

PeteZ8 said:

Are you talking about concentrate to make a 5L batch, or a 5L "brown bottle"?

One thing that drives me nuts with Ilford chemistry is everything seems to be in concentrates to "makes 5 litres". Kodak chemistry, on the other hand, is mixed to "make 1 gallon". I have dozens of 1 gallon chemistry storage bottles, but absolutely no 5L ones. This means I have to split up batches, etc. It isn't the end of the world, but it can be a little annoying always having to do conversions, or make smaller batches more often.

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I'm referring to 5l of concentrate. Both arrived in white plastic containers, but not the same shape as shown in the Freestyle photo.

The metric system is the world standard, so I don't see the point in getting annoyed with Ilford over it.

johnnywalker said:

I'm referring to 5l of concentrate. Both arrived in white plastic containers, but not the same shape as shown in the Freestyle photo.

The metric system is the world standard, so I don't see the point in getting annoyed with Ilford over it.

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My post was clearly intended to be somewhat humorous, but there is a serious point behind it. Metric or not, 5 litre containers are scarce everywhere in the world to the best of my knowledge, as are 2.5 litre containers. A 4 litre mix would fit nicely in a gallon jug or a 4 litre jug, one of which are common throughout the world depending on location.

Xtol comes in powder to make 5 litres but b&h and freestyle both sell 5 litre containers.
I dont have any but I guess I'll have to figure something out or bite the bullet and just buy one.

I transfer the chemicals into 5l wine boxes, (which have a bladder inside), an idea I got from Murray Minchin. Here you can get them at U-Brew wine stores. Maybe they're different sizes in the US, but might be worth a check.

PeteZ8 said:

Metric or not, 5 litre containers are scarce everywhere in the world to the best of my knowledge

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Where I live, 5L containers are far from scarce. The supermarket shelves are stacked with 5L and 1.5L mineral water bottles. Since I often used bottled water from sources I know to be soft, to make up my photo solutions (I live in a hard water area), there's a plentiful supply of 5L containers, and they have handy carry handles too. Moreover, being water bottles, they don't need washing out to dispel any traces of anti-freeze, windscreen wash and the like.

PeteZ8 said:

Metric or not, 5 litre containers are scarce everywhere in the world to the best of my knowledge

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I can confirm they're common enough here in Australia. I can just buy a 5ltr container of demineralised water at the hardware store to mix up my Xtol. I cant say I've seen a 4ltr container off the top of my head though.

At the risk of adding to the obviously off-topic tangent, XTOL dissolves readily enough that I wouldn't be surprised if it could be done in 2.5L with some effort, or if you feel like doing the math after the fact: 4L easily.

Johnnywalker AND I transfer the chemicals into 5l wine boxes

Ok i`m off topic, but i gotta ask , hows your liver?:

I think that a good way to effectively and accurately disseminate information, whether it be of a scientific nature or just general product nature, is via the company web site in the form of numbered and dated newsletters, with the ability to be downloaded as a PDF, if so desired.

People could subscribe to an email notification system so when Ilford Photo have a news release, they could send out a generic email with details of the type of information now available. By using embedded links inserted in the email, one could simply click straight to the release where you could read the article online, or download it as a PDF.

This is exactly what I did when the Carl Zeiss newsletter email, edition 33 arrived on the 12/10/2009 directly to my computer. Cheap, very effective, certainly do-able.

Last month whilst visiting the Ilford Photo site, I read under the Press Room heading about a special Lith paper, quite interesting but it is designed for a journalist to basically copy and re-print in their publication. Interesting as it was, the press release wasn’t printer friendly for my LASER printer, nor did it have enough technical information to satisfy me.

I think Harmon would benefit enormously if they have good news releases for the people actually using, or thinking of using their product. At the same time they should still retain their press release system, to acquiesce publications like Amateur Photographer, etcetera.

Yes I do fondly remember Victor Blackman, great inspiration, great stories, great reading, week in, week out.

As for Geoffrey Crawley, a most consistent and seemingly accurate writer, over what appears to be a lifetime of writing. I don’t know how old he is, but he certainly cannot be a spring chicken! I still read all of any article that he has written, not only does one get a proper level headed analysis of the subject matter, you always seem to learn something new.

Mick.

PeteZ8 said:

Metric or not, 5 litre containers are scarce everywhere in the world to the best of my knowledge, as are 2.5 litre containers.

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WHAT !!!!! :rolleyes:

If "everywhere in the world" is your bit of the USA then you are probably correct

However, almost the rest of the entire world other than the USA has gone over to metric

Freestyle sells Metric containers so the problem is not insurmountable

Martin

Ilford Newsletter

Simon:

I would strongly urge Ilford to resume printing newsletters. From 1993 until around 2002 there was an 8 to 12 page publication called “Ilfopro – Photographers’ Association Newsletter”. This featured information on new products, photographer profiles, darkroom and shooting tips, data sheets, readers’/users’ forum, etc. It even publicized the bizarre… ever hear of “Ilford Photique”?... a “stylish collection of wearables” including Ilford boxer shorts!

Most importantly “Ilfopro” was filled with photographic examples and when you signed up to receive these newsletters Ilford even sent a binder to encourage readers to keep them. It worked… I still have both the binder and most of the copies.

Mick mentioned that an on-line publication would be cheap, effective and do-able. I agree, although I have to say that I greatly prefer hard copy. I appreciate not having to stare at a computer screen for information and updates. Resumption of this publication would be an excellent voice for Ilford and a reassurance to users of its products that the company remains committed in continuing to promote the analog art form.

Adrian

Online. PDF-version downloadable. Print-your-own hardcopy.
Easy and cheap.