Mercury question

Flotsam · Sep 22, 2007

I just bought a couple of spiral bulbs to replace the lamps that get used the most in my home. I was looking at the disposal warnings due to mercury content on the package. I notice that these things are being heralded as the way of the future and being made by the zillions and I am honestly wondering, how much mercury does (did) making a PX 625 use compared the fluorescent and neon bulbs are being made today?
This is an innocent question I honestly don't know why the batteries were so completely banned, as opposed to being phased out, while the bulbs can be made virtually without restriction.

dmr · Sep 22, 2007

Mercury is very toxic, particularly the vapor phase.

Back when I was a kid, we did not think of it as being as nasty as it is. I used to think it was the coolest stuff around. My brothers collected it from thermometers and light switches and had a huge heavy jar of it. We would play with it and coat dimes with it and such. Nowadays it's a minor emergency when a kid finds a blob of it.

But anyway, it's my understanding that the actual amount of elemental mercury in the curly-cue bulbs is very small plus they last very long, so the danger of these bulbs is small when compared to the batteries, which had more mercury and a much shorter life.

That's my understanding anyway.

DWThomas · Sep 22, 2007

The way I've heard it, the batteries were not banned. The manufacturers were ordered to set up a program to take used batteries back and recycle the materials. Since the market was a relatively small portion of their business, the manufacturers just dropped the product rather than take the trouble to set up a recycling program.

Now if it had been AA cells . . .

DaveT

Flotsam · Sep 23, 2007

Last night I turned on one of the lamps that I had put a new-fangled spiral bulb into. I quickly noticed a distinct odor and that the bulb was vaguely flickering. After a while the smell got more intense and when I took a closer look I saw a faint wisp of smoke rising from the bulb.
Somehow saving a couple of bucks isn't worth burning down my home so I am back to good old incandescents. I guess that old Thomas Alva got it right in the first place.

richard ide · Sep 23, 2007

I have had a couple of spiral lamps start to smoke after a short while. I opened the base and there is a virtual forest of electronic components apparently installed by hand, probably from you know where. Would not be surprised if they had lead paint on them.

DWThomas · Sep 23, 2007

When compact fluorescents first appeared, I recall they were over $20 a shot which made the economic arguments pretty dubious. Lately, I've gotten deals like five for $9 which theoretically is much better. But alas, at least two out of about ten have gone to an early grave thus far. More annoying is that they specifically state not to use them in enclosed fixtures which is where the considerably reduced power dissipation would be a really nice feature. (Bring on the LEDs.)

DaveT

dmr · Sep 24, 2007

Flotsam said:
I quickly noticed a distinct odor and that the bulb was vaguely flickering. After a while the smell got more intense and when I took a closer look I saw a faint wisp of smoke rising from the bulb.

I've been enthusiastically using these, replacing the regular bulbs with them whenever they burn out. Less power used and longer life were the points I was sold on.

I haven't had one smoke, but I did have a brand new one fail to light once.

I hope it's not an omen of things to come.

wirehead · Sep 24, 2007

Oh, guys, you know how we're all bitching about being replaced by digital photography?

The guys who bend neon tubes are bitching about being replaced by LED lights.

By a strange twist of fate, I worry both about not being able to get film *and* worrying about not being able to get neon tubing and electrodes.

Flotsam · Sep 24, 2007

I saw a recent television show on the making of neon signs and it looked as if they put a pretty good sized slug of mercury into each tube. I'll bet it would be easier to reclaim used Mercury button batteries than smashed or disposed of neon signs.

And, while I am actively demonstrating my ignorance. Riddle me this Batmen.
How come they can send a man to the Moon but they can't manage to make a 1.35 volt Alkaline or Silver Oxide battery?

richard ide · Sep 24, 2007

The voltage a battery puts out is a function of the chemical composition of the electrolyte and electrode materials. For silver oxide and alkaline batteries the no load voltage is about 1.6 volts and with load around 1.5 volts. I would think a device could be simply modified with a resistor to drop the voltage but that is a different can of worms.

PHOTOTONE · Sep 24, 2007

I don't know about you folks, but I don't get extended life from the curly flourescent replacement lamps at all, this making their higher price actually costing me more overall, which negates lower power consumption.

Lopaka · Sep 24, 2007

Apparently, the CFL bulbs are much more sensitive to the age and condition of the light fixture.

http://www.masterhandyman.com/columndetails.cfm?pubdate=20070505

Bob

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2007

There is a very lengthy thread on spiral bulbs and mercury contamination here somewhere.

Yes, they contain mercury and yes they can release it if broken. If they are hot it is in the vapor state most likely.

Mercury vapor is bad for film BTW, and at Kodak we took great precautions to prevent mercury contamination. The use of mercurichrome antisceptic was banned for example. It will leave black spots on film if the vapor or certain salts come in contact with film.

PE

timeUnit · Sep 24, 2007

In my part of the world (and probably yours too) the main reason for getting spiral flourescent tubes instead of incandescent bulbs is to reduce power consumption and thus less the strain on the environment. I've replaced all my incandescent bulbs with low-wattage spirals, except for a few lamps that don't fit them. One of the tubes has worked for maybe five years of quite frequent use. The real cheap ones didn't work so well so now I only buy the good brands.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 24, 2007

I've put the new cheap CFs in most of the lamp sockets in our new apartment, and in the first month, they've already lowered our energy costs, based on a comparison with last year's costs for the same month in the same apartment with the same major appliances as reported on our utility bill. I can't say that I like the quality of the light as much as 5000K Verilux incandescent bulbs, but the CFs do run cooler than incandescents and put out more light at lower wattage, and the new ones light instantly, though there is some ramp time to full brightness. When I've bought them in the past the bulbs generally lasted 5 years or more.

richard ide · Sep 24, 2007

David
I use CFs everywhere except in the darkroom. In some locations I use Phillips daylight CFs and really appreciate the colour. They must be close to 5000K temp.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 24, 2007

I checked some of the cheap "daylight" CF bulbs that I bought with a color temperature meter, and they are around 5000-5500K on the red/blue scale, but they still need about 30M to correct them to neutral. By the same token, "warm white" bulbs were close to tungsten on the red/blue scale, but still required about 30M.

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2007

David;

The fluorescent bulbs pretty much all emit a discontiuous spectrum that misleads meters badly and does not help viewing some colors.

At Kodak, the only fluorescent bulb of any type that was accepted for color rendition was labeled deluxe cool white, and they only came in long tubes. AFAIK, they are not available in spiral lamps.

These bulbs had a special design that pretty much eliminated the discontinuous spectrum of common fluorescents. I believe that Macbeth used them in their standard print viewing cabinets.

PE

Ed Sukach · Sep 24, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
David;

The fluorescent bulbs pretty much all emit a discontinuous spectrum that misleads meters badly and does not help viewing some colors...

Beat me to the punch!! Very well written, PE.

"Color Temperature" is usually assumed to apply to a spectrum consisting of "black body" radiation, and fluorescent radiation is NOT the same.

I've found that the Tiffen "FL" filters help; but generally, nothing can re-balance the light to be "accceptable" to someone who is involved in really critical applications.

Another consideration is that common fluorescents pulsate, on and off, usually as a result of, and synchronized to, the frequency of the electrical supply - 60Hz in the US and 50Hz in Jolly Old. That can wreak havoc with exposure metering, and shutter speeds faster than ~ 1/60th second.

walter23 · Sep 24, 2007

Flotsam said:
I just bought a couple of spiral bulbs to replace the lamps that get used the most in my home. I was looking at the disposal warnings due to mercury content on the package. I notice that these things are being heralded as the way of the future and being made by the zillions and I am honestly wondering, how much mercury does (did) making a PX 625 use compared the fluorescent and neon bulbs are being made today?
This is an innocent question I honestly don't know why the batteries were so completely banned, as opposed to being phased out, while the bulbs can be made virtually without restriction.

I agree this is problematic. We have recycling programs here for them, but I know that not everybody is going to make use of them.

I sure like them though and I intend to find a way to recycle them when they burn out. I have daylight balanced ones in my living room; photos look fantastic under them (spikey discontinuous spectrum or not). I still have an incandescent lamp for those times that I want the nice warm light.

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2007

Ed Sukach said:
Beat me to the punch!! Very well written, PE.

"Color Temperature" is usually assumed to apply to a spectrum consisting of "black body" radiation, and fluorescent radiation is NOT the same.

I've found that the Tiffen "FL" filters help; but generally, nothing can re-balance the light to be "accceptable" to someone who is involved in really critical applications.

Another consideration is that common fluorescents pulsate, on and off, usually as a result of, and synchronized to, the frequency of the electrical supply - 60Hz in the US and 50Hz in Jolly Old. That can wreak havoc with exposure metering, and shutter speeds faster than ~ 1/60th second.

Ed;

It was my understanding that the flicker was eliminated by use of a radio frequency type emission to 'fire' the bulb. Do you have any informaiton on that? The big tubes sure do flicker and cause eyestrain. Same as a TV.

And, thanks for the nice comment.

PE

walter23 · Sep 24, 2007

PHOTOTONE said:
I don't know about you folks, but I don't get extended life from the curly flourescent replacement lamps at all, this making their higher price actually costing me more overall, which negates lower power consumption.

Well, I'm willing to pay a moderate price for lower energy use, even if the energy savings are lower than the money I'm putting into it. I blow way more than the cost of 5 years worth of damned lightbulbs than I do on film or printing some months.

BTW, regular large fluorescent tube lights also use mercury. The same disposal issues have been with us for quite awhile.

dogzbum · Sep 24, 2007

Flotsam said:
... why the batteries were so completely banned, as opposed to being phased out, while the bulbs can be made virtually without restriction.

I would hypothesise that it is easier to swallow a PX625 than a CF bulb. I'm happy to revise this theory if others have proven this incorrect ... tee hee.

Seriously though, as a user of vintage equipment it is frustrating to find an old camera in good condition and have to modify it to take a silver oxide battery.

freygr · Oct 7, 2007

Flotsam said:
I saw a recent television show on the making of neon signs and it looked as if they put a pretty good sized slug of mercury into each tube. I'll bet it would be easier to reclaim used Mercury button batteries than smashed or disposed of neon signs.

And, while I am actively demonstrating my ignorance. Riddle me this Batmen.
How come they can send a man to the Moon but they can't manage to make a 1.35 volt Alkaline or Silver Oxide battery?

Neon light DOES NOT use any Mercury at all. All neon lights use Neon gas or a combination of gases. All the gases are extracted form the atmosphere using a "coldbox".

Mercury Lights are UV light sources, and the coating in side the fluorescent tube is basically an phosphor or zinc oxide.

As far for the 1.35 volt battery, the voltage of all batteries are determined by their Chemistry only. If the materials are too costly the manufacturer will not make them.

fschifano · Oct 7, 2007

dogzbum said:
I would hypothesise that it is easier to swallow a PX625 than a CF bulb. I'm happy to revise this theory if others have proven this incorrect ... tee hee.

You know, that's probably the real reason the batteries were discontinued.

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