memory problems re split toning procedure and fixer

djkloss · Sep 7, 2014

I haven't done any toning in years. The last time I did it I did the Kodak Sepia followed by the Kodak Selenium for a split tone. What I don't remember is if you're supposed to fix the print after sepia/before selenium .... or.... after selenium at the end. I know you're supposed to fix the print after a partial bleach/tone which is what I'm doing, but is it ok to fix the print before the selenium step or should you wait till the final step. I'm using TF-4.

Just a simple answer will do. And yes, I already have Tim's book which is very thorough, however it didn't answer my question.

Thanks!

Dorothy

MattKing · Sep 7, 2014

I just wash (or more accurately rinse) between the sepia and selenium steps.

But I try to control the amount of sepia by limiting how much I bleach before. I try to follow that partial bleach with a full sepia tone.

If you do a full bleach and then a partial sepia tone, I believe you will be left with undeveloped silver salts, and you will need to fix them out before moving to selenium.

Those who follow the latter procedure will hopefully confirm or correct my comments.

jcc · Sep 7, 2014

I rinse in between, then fix at the end.

walbergb · Sep 7, 2014

No need to fix between toners. Fix after all toning is completed and only if toning is incomplete, as you identified. Remember to use a hypo clearing agent before bleaching and after toning to avoid selenium staining, assuming that you are toning fibre prints. See page 123 of Tim's Toning Book.

djkloss · Sep 7, 2014

MattKing said:
I just wash (or more accurately rinse) between the sepia and selenium steps.

But I try to control the amount of sepia by limiting how much I bleach before. I try to follow that partial bleach with a full sepia tone.

If you do a full bleach and then a partial sepia tone, I believe you will be left with undeveloped silver salts, and you will need to fix them out before moving to selenium.

Those who follow the latter procedure will hopefully confirm or correct my comments.

Thanks Matt,

I do a partial bleach, and a partial tone. Will the effect be different depending on when the fixing is done I wonder? Oh so many variables!

djkloss · Sep 7, 2014

walbergb said:
No need to fix between toners. Fix after all toning is completed and only if toning is incomplete, as you identified. Remember to use a hypo clearing agent before bleaching and after toning to avoid selenium staining, assuming that you are toning fibre prints. See page 123 of Tim's Toning Book.

Thanks,

I'm using Heico Perma Wash method after the sepia toning

walbergb · Sep 7, 2014

Clarification Please

djkloss said:
Thanks,

I'm using Heico Perma Wash method after the sepia toning

Are you saying that you use Perma Wash after sepia toning but before toning in selenium?

djkloss · Sep 8, 2014

walbergb said:
Are you saying that you use Perma Wash after sepia toning but before toning in selenium?

yes. is heico the same as hcl?

walbergb · Sep 8, 2014

djkloss said:
yes. is heico the same as hcl?

Essentially, yes. Both are sufites and used as washing aids. As such, there is no advantage to using a washing aid between toners when using multiple toners. As jcc said, a short wash (2-5 minutes) between toners is all that is needed.

Vaughn · Sep 8, 2014

With sepia toning, there is no partial toning (unless one dilutes the Part B considerably) -- there is partial bleaching, but part B will convert/tone all the bleached image -- no need to re-fix.

MattKing · Sep 8, 2014

Vaughn said:
With sepia toning, there is no partial toning (unless one dilutes the Part B considerably) -- there is partial bleaching, but part B will convert/tone all the bleached image -- no need to re-fix.

I've wondered about this - thanks for posting this Vaughn.

I've tried a very brief dip into the Part B sepia toner before rinse and then selenium - it really messes up the selenium!

Vaughn · Sep 8, 2014

I have bleached (using Part A of Sepia Toner) images all the way back (just a faint hint of the image left), then redeveloped the image selectively using Dektol on a brush. Sometimes another very quick dip in the bleach to clean things up, then into the fix to remove the un-redeveloped bleached silver. One can spend hours having such fun! The areas lightly re-developed are warmer that the areas completely redeveloped, and other fun stuff!

djkloss · Sep 9, 2014

thank you all for all the great information! It's a wonderful thing to have you guys on APUG for all my questions.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 9, 2014

djkloss said:
I haven't done any toning in years. The last time I did it I did the Kodak Sepia followed by the Kodak Selenium for a split tone. What I don't remember is if you're supposed to fix the print after sepia/before selenium .... or.... after selenium at the end. I know you're supposed to fix the print after a partial bleach/tone which is what I'm doing, but is it ok to fix the print before the selenium step or should you wait till the final step. I'm using TF-4.

Just a simple answer will do. And yes, I already have Tim's book which is very thorough, however it didn't answer my question.

Thanks!

Dorothy

I'm not sure if I can be much helpbecause,I selenium tone,fix,wash and thensulphide tone,before the final wash.I fix before sulphidebecause,residual silver halide may stain in sulphideotherwise.I get nice cold blue shadows and warm slightly brown highlights this way;just what I want for my figure work.

Patrick Robert James · Sep 9, 2014

I have always sepia toned before the selenium and I don't do anything except wash in water in between. Never had a problem.

djkloss · Sep 10, 2014

Well at this point I'm not sure what I'll be doing. The Kodak Sepia Toner seems to have been discontinued and mine is DOA. Looks like I'll have to switch mid-stream to either Kodak Brown Toner or the Photoformulary Polysulfide (?) or Sodium Sulfide (can't remember off hand which one i have). 'Twill be an interesting adventure. What have I gotten myself in to? This is my very first 'show' on 9/26 and I'm just a tad stressed out. But thanks again for all your input.

Dorothy

Patrick Robert James · Sep 10, 2014

Dorothy, you only need a bleach and Sodium Sulfide. There are a ton of bleach combinations you can use, but Potassium Ferricyanide and Potassium Bromide make a pretty standard one. The Sodium Sulfide is used straight in the second bath. It is about the easiest thing to mix up. That combo should be really close in tone to the Kodak you have been using. The Photoformulary will have them.

Rich Ullsmith · Sep 11, 2014

Congratulations on your show!

Yes, you can get unexpected results with partial bleaching, some more pleasing than others. Hope you have lots of prints to destroy!

djkloss · Sep 13, 2014

OK, so I mixed up the Photoformulary Polysulfide that I bought some years ago. No smell. Nothing. Nada! and it didn't do anything even after 20 mins. So what's up with that? I resorted to the Brown Toner 1:30 and it's is a lovely color, but i was reading Wynn White's info and liked what he was saying about the color of polysulfide, so i thought i'd try it.

So the fun continues.......... any reason why the solid would expire?

Patrick Robert James · Sep 13, 2014

Dorothy, some single bath toners are really slooooooow. Some work faster if they are diluted for some reason that escapes me (Viradon). You may want to add more carbonate to the toner as well because that can lose some potency depending on what type it was to begin with. You can get carbonate at any pool supply place and most hardware stores have it.

The other way, and the best way, to speed up the toning is to heat the toner, but don't get it too hot. It is also possible the paper you are using doesn't respond well to the toner. You didn't mention what type of paper you are using.

I would still suggest you get the appropriate chemicals to tone the way to which you are accustomed.

djkloss · Sep 13, 2014

Patrick Robert James said:
Dorothy, some single bath toners are really slooooooow. Some work faster if they are diluted for some reason that escapes me (Viradon). You may want to add more carbonate to the toner as well because that can lose some potency depending on what type it was to begin with. You can get carbonate at any pool supply place and most hardware stores have it.

The other way, and the best way, to speed up the toning is to heat the toner, but don't get it too hot. It is also possible the paper you are using doesn't respond well to the toner. You didn't mention what type of paper you are using.

I would still suggest you get the appropriate chemicals to tone the way to which you are accustomed.

How slow? 20 mins at 80 degrees, I thought would be enough. The paper I tried it on was the 'unknown paper' but is warmtone and matt. I had enough to make a few prints and it responded well with the Brown Toner. Very low budget here. The chemicals I'm used to were discontinued, (Kodak Sepia and Kodak Brown Toner). The polysulfide is from a kit from photoformulary, so i just followed the instructions. But I don't understand the lack of smell even when mixing or sniffing the bottle after it's mixed. Unfortunately I am on a deadline, so no time to order more. I'll guess I'll have to make do with the Kodak Brown Toner for now.

Rick A · Sep 14, 2014

Just a thought, it could be the paper just will not accept toning. I am trying to sepia tone some Fotokemika Varikon FB, it will not tone, it barely bleached back even. It does punch up a wee bit in selenium, but not much.

Patrick Robert James · Sep 14, 2014

Are you using a hardening fixer Rick? I have never had a problem toning Varikon. It tones better than most other papers.

memory problems re split toning procedure and fixer

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