Medium format musings

Tim Gray · Jul 16, 2009

I know these kinds of questions have been asked a million times, but here we go once more.

I'm thinking of trying my hand at medium format. I'd like to do 6x6. Relatively portable is desired. That probably leaves either a rangefinder or a TLR. The new Bessa looks great, but is a tad expensive. Mamiya 6's aren't all that much cheaper when all is said in done (from what I've seen). So I'm thinking of a Rollieflex. My main question is where the heck do you buy these? Ebay? Some TLR specialist that I don't know about? What should I be looking for?

I know it's a very different camera, but a Hasselblad SWC is also appealing to me. Same questions though: what to look for and where to buy.

david b · Jul 16, 2009

Check with KEH for cameras and pricing.

I don't know much about Rolleis but can tell you lots about Hasselblads.

You can now get a 500cm kit for about $800-$1000
If you want an SWC, which I own and love, will range in price from $1500 to $6000 depending
on what model you choose.

Thomas Wilson · Jul 16, 2009

Well, I guess it depends on where you live, how far you are willing to travel to inspect a prospective camera, and how patient you are.

I would try to decide on 2-3 different cameras (types or models) and be diligent in your search. I swear by Craiglist, but I live in the middle of the I-95 corridor. I have picked up 2 Hasselblads, 2 Fuji folders, and just today was the kicker.

I got a B&J Grover 5x7, damn near mint, with case, Kodak Ektar Commercial 8½" lens mint with original ebony, velvet lined box, 2 lens boards, 10 film holders, 5 of which were still wrapped from the factory, and two tripods, for the whopping price of $25.00.

One of the tripods I can't use. It's a Crown #4. But what the hell?

I downloaded the Craigslist posting, printed it, and stuffed it in the camera case to prove to any skeptics that I was not exaggerating.

Paul Sorensen · Jul 16, 2009

I bought a Rolleiflex on eBay, it is risky, but it seems for Rolleiflexes, still the best way to get good prices. KEH is really great, but their Rolleiflex prices were pretty high, it seemed to me. As for what to look for, well, it really depends on what you want. In general terms, the newer it is and the better the lens, the more expensive it is. The Planar lenses, especially f2.8 versions are by far the highest, and the Tessars tend to be a bit cheaper, especially older ones. You should just assume that you will want to have it serviced right away, perhaps you won't, but that can be a pleasant surprise if that is the case.

If you are interested in a good folding camera, check out http://certo6.com/, or his auctions on eBay. He sells old folders that he has overhauled and I have been really happy with mine. A decent 6X6 camera with a rangefinder might be $300 and up. The lenses are likely not as good as the better ones on Rolleiflexes, but there are plenty of Tessars and equivalents out there, which are pretty darned good.

Tim Gray · Jul 16, 2009

Let's see, I'm willing to wait a while and drive reasonable distance. I too live on the I-95 corridor (Philadelphia) so maybe I'll hit up craigslist more.

I thought about a Hasselblad 500 but they look like they get pretty big once you get a back and a lens on there. Though the SWC is relatively compact for what it does. What causes the price of those to range from $1500-6000? The SWC would scratch a different itch than the Rolleiflex for sure - looks like a real fun camera.

If I went with a Rolleiflex, I did do enough research on them (and TLRs) to figure out that I'd go for an f2.8. I'm coming from a rangefinder with fast lenses, so while I'll be able to adjust to a slower lens, I still would like some speed. I leaning towards a Rolleiflex over some of the other TLR options because they seem lighter, a bit better made, etc. I don't want or need the close focusing or changeable lenses of some of the other makes of TLRs.

Where is a good place to service Rolleiflexes in the US?

jeffreyg · Jul 16, 2009

All good choices the 6x6 format is worthwhile. I would consider a source that has a return policy and/or if you are able to inspect the equipment in person take a couple of rolls of film, expose at different settings to check shutter speeds and lens apertures, process the film to confirm the working condition.
Jeffreyg

david b · Jul 16, 2009

A 1961 Hasselblad SWC sells for around $1500 or so. It is an uncoated lens. Has the older viewfinder. Will most likely show it's age.

A 2005 Hasselblad 905 SWC is the latest Zeiss technology. It has a multicoated lens. It has the newest, brighter lens. They sell for $5000-$6000

Q.G. · Jul 16, 2009

david b said:
A 2005 Hasselblad 905 SWC is the latest Zeiss technology. It has a multicoated lens. It has the newest, brighter lens. They sell for $5000-$6000

In fact, the redesign was made necessary because of restrictions on material use during manufacture.

The 905's redesigned Biogon shows that the original design - done in days before computers - was perfect.
It does so, by being in fact a bit less good (!) than the lens that has been on the SW(...) since 1954.

Compared to the old version, the performance drops a bit in the center. But it gains a bit in the corners. The new lens' 'best' is not quite (only a very, very small difference!) as good as the old lens' 'best'.

In the redesign, the lens has not been made faster. It was a f/4.5 lens in 1954. It still was a f/4.5 lens when it was on the 905.
The change from T to T* coating does not make a difference of detectable size.

So the most desirable SWC would in fact be the 903 SWC. The one before the 905.
More desirable than the older cameras, just because the older ones are older, and have had more opprotunity to wear.

But having said that, it is all more of academic interest than of real interest.

Tim Gray · Jul 16, 2009

Still interesting to know. I'll put the 903 SWC on the list of things I want but will never have. I'll keep an eye out for an SWC that's been taken care of from maybe the 80's? Is that a sweet spot?

keithwms · Jul 16, 2009

To be totally frank, if you're debating a Rolleiflex versus a Mamiya/Fuji RF then you probably don't know enough yet to make the right decision. You really need to get them in your hands, do some shooting, and figure out what will make you more productive (as opposed to whatever made somebody else more productive).

The shooting style and capabilities of TLRs and RFs are miles (kilometres) apart. Just abotu as different as can be in almost every respect. They are both very much more specialized than an SLR... and for good reason(s): they excel at quite different tasks. Moreover, some photographers find they really are uncomfortable with one or the other.

Borrow, rent, buy & sell ... do whatever you have to do to try them first. Also make a list of the fields of view you will typically want, that can be a huge factor in deciding. Some of us feel fine with one or two lenses, others feel incapacitated without 12 (ahem).

You will get all manner of prose in support of one or the other, but ultimately it's your productivity and enjoyment that's at stake.

P.S. Don't whether this matters, but some of the Mamiya 645 SLRs can now accept Hassie lenses, if you are especially partisan about that.

Rick A · Jul 16, 2009

Tim Gray said:
I know these kinds of questions have been asked a million times, but here we go once more.

I'm thinking of trying my hand at medium format. I'd like to do 6x6. Relatively portable is desired. That probably leaves either a rangefinder or a TLR. The new Bessa looks great, but is a tad expensive. Mamiya 6's aren't all that much cheaper when all is said in done (from what I've seen). So I'm thinking of a Rollieflex. My main question is where the heck do you buy these? Ebay? Some TLR specialist that I don't know about? What should I be looking for?

I know it's a very different camera, but a Hasselblad SWC is also appealing to me. Same questions though: what to look for and where to buy.

Yashicas are still at "good" prices, for TLR's. Bronicas are also a good way to go for SLR's, S, Sq, and SQa. If you want anything smaller than 6x6, then I'd recommend a Pentax 645, or Bronica ETR.

Tim Gray · Jul 16, 2009

Thanks for the input. I would like to try some out -- the nice thing about these older cameras is that if I don't like something, I'll probably be able to sell it for about what I paid for it if I buy smart.

I would imagine that shooting one of the medium format RF's is similar to shooting with a 35mm RF, which is what I mostly shoot with. Sure there will be some differences, but I'm pretty comfortable shooting RF.

I don't need interchangeable lenses. I primarily shoot with a 50 and a 28 on 35mm, so an 80mm sounds just about right.

The SWC is a different itch. As I said, 28mm is a favorite of mine, and I thought the SWC was a roughly equivalent view to that (a bit wider...).

John Koehrer · Jul 16, 2009

Face it the SWC is a wide angle camera with guesstimate focus, No problem there. But it's only marginally smaller than the 500 series. It takes the same backs so it's the same H&W the only difference is depth.
500 you view through the taking lens, can change the lens and for the price of a SWC could have the body & two if not three lenses(smart shopping & patience)

MattKing · Jul 16, 2009

If size didn't matter, I'd suggest trying a Koni-Omega with 90mm and 58mm lenses.

Matt

Tim Gray · Jul 16, 2009

Jesus those things are big!

MattKing · Jul 16, 2009

Tim Gray said:
Jesus those things are big!

They were great wedding cameras in their heyday!

(sotto voce: men were men then)

Actually, they handle really well, and quickly, but they do tend to scare little children when you use them.

I actually used to know a wedding and portrait photographer who had downsized to smaller equipment - an RB 67 for the wedding formals, and a Koni-Omega for the action shots.

Matt

Tim Gray · Jul 16, 2009

I bet. I know someone who is looking for a camera. I think this is right up his alley. And they look very affordable too.

TheSohnly · Jul 16, 2009

A NOTICE TO ALL IN THIS THREAD:
If you have a craigslist, USE IT for medium format stuff.
I dont know if i've just been lucky, or what. BUT:

I have gotten a used working Mamiya C220 (minus finder/prism) and 80mm f/2.8 for ~$10USD
I have gotten a used working Bronica SQ-Ai (minus battery holder) and prism finder, 50mm f/3.5, and 120 back for ~$30USD (traded a computer I got from a different trade)

Craigslist is a great source for equipment (mostly used) and people are willing to trade for things like electronics, dvd's, other cameras, and anything else you might have around. This nets you equipment for pretty much free.

I haven't used KEH, but I hear it's perfect. That and ebay.
just my $0.02

36cm2 · Jul 16, 2009

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8330/4.3.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Tim, I own a Rolleiflex 2.8F and absolutely love it. I lusted over the Mamiya 6 for a long time and thought I would love it over my flex, but when I finally got to use one I found the flex much much more to my liking. I agree, try all your options out if you can.
As for where to buy a Rolleiflex or get one repaired, there use to be a guy in northern New Jersey that was a techician in Rollei's north american outfit before it went under. I believe his name is Krimar if he's still around. He does impeccable CLAs and last I went to see him he had a large collection of used Rolleiflexes for sale (including some awesome wide-angles that made me drool). He's not cheap, but you'll be sure of what you're getting. I use fleabay and craigslist all the time and love them, but I've had my share of problems with old cameras through them. Best of luck.

Medium format musings

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Tim Gray

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keithwms

Rick A

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John Koehrer

MattKing

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