medium format backs on 4x5 camera

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bicycletricycle

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i was thinking of buying a medium format camera and lens with shift/tilt. someone here said to by a 4x5, if iwere to buy a 4x5 to use with various medium format backs, 6x12, 6x9. what should i get? it needs to be light and durable because iide my bicycle everywere and i would be taking it on hikes. mostly wide angle lenses so something that has special bellows available for that. i read somewere about issues with lf lenses having a lower resolving power than good medium format lenses, will that be a problem? what is the fastest lense that will cover 6x12, f4.5? does anyone ever use medium format lenses adapted to a lense board for this kind of work? im new to this large format thing and need all the help i can get, thanks
 

David A. Goldfarb

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There are lots of choices available, so it will depend on your needs and your budget. Many cameras can use wide lenses without a special bellows. The latest LF lenses are as good as the best MF lenses, and even many lenses that are 30 or 40 years old are fine for MF.

If you are on a bicycle, how do you plan to carry a tripod? I always find this kind of awkward, though I do have one very compact tripod that I can use with an ultralight camera (a Gowland 4x5" PocketView). Some LF shooters who cycle use a trailer, in which case, you could use any camera you want. For cycling, you should probably think in terms of a folding camera, rather than a monorail, but that doesn't narrow it down much.

Check around, and you'll find some threads on starting in LF. Read the articles and camera reviews at lfphoto.info and the articles for beginners at viewcamera.com.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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One camera you might want to look at is the 2 1/4 X 3 1/4 Century Graphic with Graflock Back. I shoot it on a tripod and also hand held. Mine has a rangefinder coupled 80mm f2.8 Schneider Xenotar that covers the format with movements and is very, very sharp. The rollfilm backs that I most often use with this rig are the Mamiya RB Pro S 6x7 cm. They are excellent backs that hold the film very flat and they fit the Graflock very well (you do need to be careful that they lock up correctly).

I also use a 65mm Schneider Super Angulon (which covers 4x5). It is a very sharp lens as well.
 

carsten

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I use Linhof 6x7 and 6x9 backs, second hand, very sturdy and very good. And cheap.
 

Mongo

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The first question you have to answer for yourself is whether or not 6x12 is a necessity or just a thought that you've had. 6x12 backs are cheaper now that there are Chinese companies making them, but they'll still set you back significantly more than a 6x9 back. If you can live with 6x9, then you can get an old Graphic 2 1/4 x 2 3/4 and an appropriate back...a fairly compact and self-contained solution to shooting MF with movements.

If you need 6x12 and/or 4x5, then you're going to be getting a 4x5 camera. The thing that you'll want to get is a camera with a Graflok back (also called a "Universal" back) as this will allow you to use a much greater range of rollfilm backs than a spring back will allow.

You mention that the camera has to be light, but knowing your definition of "light" would help. I have a Shen-Hao 4x5 that's heavier than a lot of 4x5s out there, but it's light to me. (It also has a Graflok back and interchangeable bellows - bag bellows sell for around $100.) I'm very happy with my Shen-Hao, but it's only one camera in a very large field of available equipment.

Depending on your budget, you could get anything from an old Crown Graphic with a Graflok back up to a number of new cameras that will meet your needs - some of which will run into the thousands of dollars.

I'm a big fan of buying used equipment due to the cost savings. The Gowland Pocket View that David mentioned always gets good reviews. You can read more about it at Peter Gowland's web site (http://www.petergowland.com/camera/index.html). I've yet to read a review by someone who owned one and was unhappy...if you want an ultra-light camera it's a very good choice. (The Toho FC-45X seems to be the ultimate light-weight 4x5 camera, but it lacks a Graflok back.)

Give us some idea of your budget, weight constraints, and what lenses you're thinking about, and I'm sure you'll get some firm recommendations for cameras to look at. One thing to keep in mind is that the weight of the camera is only part of the issue with a large format setup. With a 6.5 pound camera, my hiking backpack comes in at almost 40 pounds if I carry the system I'd like to have with me. (Four lenses, six film holders, light meter, filters, etc.) Saving two pounds on the camera isn't going to save me a lot on a hike...but if I was willing to go minimalist (1 lens, Quickload holder and film, simple meter) the difference that the camera weight makes would have a greater impact.

As to the quality of lenses: Modern lenses for LF are excellent. A lot of people who shoot LF use older lenses because they're cheap, readily available, and give many more options that just buying new lenses. (My own collection is about half modern and half old lenses.) But if you stick with modern multi-coated lenses, LF have resolution that will be just fine for MF film. (And if you want a special "look", the variety of old lenses available at any time is staggering. Well over a century of LF photography has left a lot of equipment available if you're interested.)

If you can trigger the shutter on a medium format lens, or if it has no shutter and you can use something else in the place of the shutter, you can adapt almost any lens to a LF camera with a little ingenuity. I've personally hacked up lens boards with old Bronica S2a lenses, enlarger lenses, 35mm lenses (for macro work)...as long as there's nothing in the lens that's stopping you from getting light through the lens, you can build lensboards for any conceivable lens. So if you're concerned about what lens you'll be using with the camera, just remember that the lens board serves only two purposes: It holds the lens in place and it stops light from getting in anywhere other than through the lens. With that in mind, it's pretty easy to figure out how to build a lensboard for any lens you can imagine.

Best of luck to you. I hope you'll give us a little more information on your needs and limitations...I'm sure you'll get some great recommendations for a camera and other equipment.

Be well.
Dave
 
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bicycletricycle

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i guess that if i go large i would want 6x12. as far as the weight, i guess its not so important, my budget is about 3000 but i could go more, i try not to think about budget to much, ireaaly like nice equipment. i was looking at the arca swiss cameras and the quality on those seems amazing. i know the field cameras are made for this sort of think but those mono rail cameras just seem like they bould be a joy to use. i also really think i would like a metal camera. one thing im worried about is depth of field, ilike to have fast lenses with my 35mm and medium format gear for the limited depth of field, most lenses ive seen top out at 4.5. are there any faster? is 38mm the widest lense? durability and build quaity are of utmost importance to me. I don't like to use anyhting that was put together poorly or is pretty good or wobbly or anyhting other than really nice.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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It seems to me that you have defined a very constricting set of requirements.

You want a 6x12 with a fast lens. This forces you to either a 4x5 View or Field camera or a dedicated 6x12 like a Fuji, etc. A "fast" (faster then f4.5 or f5.6) lens for any of these solutions is just not in the cards.

IMHO, for bicycling or backpacking a monorail view camera is not a good choice.

If you are willing to settle for a 6x9, there a many solutions available - the main constraint in the 6x9 trade space is "fast lens." There are a few lens choices in f2.8 and 80 - 100mm focal length that will cover the 6x9 format (with limited movements) I have examples from Schneider, Rodenstock and Zeiss.

If you find that you have too much depth of field, use a longer lens.

I have a 6x9 Galvin monorail which is very light - it is also very slow to set up (typical of most monorails). But it takes great pictures when you finally get it set up.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/cameras/toyo/toyo-galvin-2x3.html
 

Mongo

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First the bad news: "Fast lens" and "large format" rarely go together. But remember that a large format camera gives you movements...most people think of movements as a way to move the plane of sharp focus in order to get more of the image in focus. Here's the good news: There's no reason you can't do just the opposite...move the plane of sharp focus so that only a very limited area of the image is sharp. The aperture of the lens will still have an effect, but with careful planning you can restrict the sharp parts of an image to a very limited section of the picture. (If you have an understanding of view camera movements, then you know that tilting the font standard down lays the plane of sharp focus down, thus brining the ground in front of you and the mountains far away into focus. Now, imagine what would happen if you tilted the standard the other way.) Although there's a lot more information available for using movements to get an image that's sharp thoughout, it really doesn't take much effort to mentally reverse the process to get the plane where it will give you the shallow depth of field that you want.

As for money, remember the old saying: Save your money for the lenses. $3000 is a significant chunk of change, but if you're going to go with an Arca Swiss that you'll be happy to use out of the studio, then $3000 is probably going to get you your camera and not much else. If you're looking to buy new, very wide-angle lenses for the camera, then $3000 isn't going to go too far there either. (Schneider Super-Angulon XL 38mm f/5.6, with the center filter that you will want, comes to almost $1900 at B&H.) So if you looking for a brand new, top-of-the-line, extreme wide angle (remember, the camera, lens board, lens, and even the cable release are special for wide angle) system, then $3,000 won't even get you in the door. Sadly, the type of equipment that you're looking at is extremely specialized, and therefore isn't available often on the used market. (The widest lens that KEH has listed right now is 65mm.)

Now, all of this looks like bad news, but remember that you can always adjust your expectations to fit your budget. (My first 8x10 system, including 3 lenses, a camera, and 6 film holders, cost me less than $750.) First, determine if you really need new equipment. If not, then there are plenty of bargains to be had in used LF equipment. This is especially true if you're willing to use a monorail in the field. Somthing like an old Cambo SC (that can be broken down into two standards, the bellows, and the rail) can work in the field, and although it will take longer to set it up, it will cost you 10% of what a new Arca Swiss will. Remember that if you want brand-new top-of-the-line lenses, you're going to have to save a lot of money on the camera. Can you live with less extreme lenses? KEH has 65mm lenses listed in the $6-700 range. You can get Chinese-made 6x12 backs for $300. They're not the most elegant things in the world, but they do the job quite nicely.

Here's the bottom line: For a new 4x5 camera, you're going to pay anywhere from around $600 up to any amount you wish to pay. $600 will buy you a Tachihara (a nice camera, very light, but with a spring back), or a Shen-Hao (my personal camera with which I'm very happy, but about which others have expressed reservations). That's pretty much the cheap end of new 4x5 equipment that's designed for field use, and they're both wooden cameras. For another $60 you can get a Toyo-View 45CF, but it has no back movements. If you want equipment that's in the Arca Swiss category, your $3000 will pretty much pay for your camera and nothing else.

Lenses, especially wide-angle lenses, are not inexpensive. $3000 will get you a brand new extreme wide-angle lens with the appropriate accessories and a brand new normal lens (normal for 6x9, that is), if you're lucky.

In used equipment, you'll have much greater luck finding lenses that will fit into your budget. Cameras as well. Given the quality of the equipment with which you'd like to work, I'd highly recommend contacting two dealers to discuss what you want to do and what you'd like to spend. You can contact Midwest Photo Exchange (ask for Jim) and Badger Graphics. Their web sites are www.mpex.com and www.badgergraphic.com. They both handle a lot of large format equipment, and will likely be able to steer you in the direction of a useable system. Jim at Midwest handles a lot of used LF gear, and I've always found him to be an absolute joy to work with. I've also had nothing but good experiences with Badger Graphics. Both dealers have made me feel over the years that they're interested in making me happy so that I'll come back again, rather than trying to sell me the most expensive thing they can for the quick buck. You can email both companies and explain your situation and budget...they'll be able to point you in the appropriate direction based on their wide knowledge of equipment and their inventories.

Large format is very addictive, and I've built up both my 4x5 and 8x10 systems inexpensively over the years. But I started with much more "average" needs, and was able to buy in cheaply and then pick out the bargains for the more unusual things when they came along.

I wish I could tell you how to get the system you want for $3000, but I think that you'll struggle if your requirements are new, top-of-the-line, and extreme wide-angle. The equipment is out there, but at very high prices.

I wish you the best. Be well.
Dave
 

waynecrider

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bicycletricycle said:
i was thinking of buying a medium format camera and lens with shift/tilt. someone here said to by a 4x5, if iwere to buy a 4x5 to use with various medium format backs, 6x12, 6x9. what should i get? it needs to be light and durable because iide my bicycle everywere and i would be taking it on hikes. mostly wide angle lenses so something that has special bellows available for that. i read somewere about issues with lf lenses having a lower resolving power than good medium format lenses, will that be a problem? what is the fastest lense that will cover 6x12, f4.5? does anyone ever use medium format lenses adapted to a lense board for this kind of work? im new to this large format thing and need all the help i can get, thanks

I've done the bike thing with medium format shooting a Rollei kit and that was a hassle, let alone LF which I have tried. I carried a tripod and a backpack and it was just more nonsense then what it was worth. Maybe your use to carrying a 35mm kit and have it down, but it puts me off balance too much and I was consistently wrestling with my 6lb tripod on top of it. If your interested in wide and quality consider an Xpan, but if you think your going to conquer LF, multiple backs, films holders and bicycling you better consider a trailor. For me that was not an option the way I ride. Now to the real problem which is as stated above. LF is a different beast. It's going to be like putting a square peg into a round hole for you. Unless you really have the need for LF, and not for only a couple of prints on the wall, think it over. If your following the bigger is better line of reasoning, consider a folder in 6x9, but then your screwed on the movement thing, but it will give ya a bigger neg. If you absolutely have to have the bigger negs and movements too, and need to use roll backs, save the money on the trailor and don't bike. To me their not compatible.
 

Sparky

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Heck, I used to carry (when I was MUCH younger - of course! I think I was 19 or so) a Gitzo 505 (the huge one) with an aluminum case with a big linhof kardan TE, 2 lenses and a bunch of film holders, etc... well - yes - it sucked and was awkward as hell - but it was functional and probably a great workout! If I remember correctly - I did it all with shoulder straps.
 
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bicycletricycle

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thanks

i have ridden my bicycle everywere i go for about ten years now so im pretty good with carrying stuff. i found a arca swiss 4x5 f classic for 1500.
i dont expect to get all my stuff for three grand but if i could get up and running with a fast longer lense and a nice camera and a roll film back i can save up for ultra wide later. this is not a field camera but what about the sinar f2 and the sinar p. the p seems so coll and easy to use and amazing adjustments and you dont have to keep locking everything down, anyways a 13 pounds its pretty heavy and i cant even find specs on the relatively affordable and older p, just a bunch of stuff on the p2 and 3. anyone know how the p differs besides the fact that is is silver? and what about the sinar f2, its not real small but it aint bad and it looks like it is built really well. any thoughts? thanks alot for all the help again, ive been saving for a bit and really want to get a new super amazing camera, you guys are all a real big help. if you ever need bicycle advice, thats my day job.
 

medform-norm

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it can be done

We lug some bulky gear around on a bike. It's pretty heavy, but it can be done.

We have the Graphic View II monorail + 3 lenses + roll film back + profisix + assorted stuff in a tool bag that is hauled into a backpack harness. The tripod is strapped onto this combo. It's not pretty, but it works. The monorail fits upside down in the bag. The set up is quite fast this way, just lift it out of its nest and screw on top of tripod. Takes less than five minutes to stop, park, set up and start composing.

The Pecoflex fits into one of the larger Billinghams (amazing as it may seem) + 3/4 lenses + roll film back + lunasix + shades + assorted stuff. This combination has a backpack harness as well. Set-up is equally fast. Maybe this is even heavier than the Graphic combi due to the mirror housing of the camera, but still okay for a day's hike.

It's especially nice to work with a monorail in the field as it has lots of movements (more than most field cameras), and if we ever had to get a new one, it would be another monorail. Maybe even an Arca Swiss, although some people say they are hell to clean when they get sand and dirt in the gears.

Life's tough, isn't it? Maybe your choice would be easier if you'd have less money, rather than more.

PS What Mongo said about manipulation the plane of focus is very practical. Check out the work of dutch artist Frank van der Salm on his website - he uses these manipulations quite a lot - and there's a Danish photog who does exactly what Mongo suggests. (He was linked on the weblog by Joerg Colberg, that's all I can recall off hand).
 

Nick Zentena

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bicycletricycle said:
one thing im worried about is depth of field, ilike to have fast lenses with my 35mm and medium format gear for the limited depth of field, most lenses ive seen top out at 4.5. are there any faster? is 38mm the widest lense? durability and build quaity are of utmost importance to me. I don't like to use anyhting that was put together poorly or is pretty good or wobbly or anyhting other than really nice.


A couple of things. I doubt you'll find too much DOF a problem. Surf over to the Scheinder website and take a look at the DOF tables for various formats.

38mm on a 4x5 is VERY wide. It's like a 12mm on 35mm camera.

http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/depth_of_field_tables/4x5/150depth.htm

That's a 150mm [similar to a 43mm on 35mm film] lens on 4x5.
 

Mongo

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bicycletricycle said:
i dont expect to get all my stuff for three grand but if i could get up and running with a fast longer lense and a nice camera and a roll film back i can save up for ultra wide later.

In new equipment, the only thing that's going to give you headaches with these requirements is finding a "fast" lens. If you're used to 35mm lens speeds, then you're used to lenses that are very fast compared to most medium- and large-format lenses. There are some fast MF lenses made these days, but in new LF lenses, f/4.5 is about it for wide angle lenses and f/5.6 for normal or longer lenses. (I just looked through everything that B&H product list from 90mm up to 210mm, and these are the fastest lenses they list.)

Historically there were faster lenses available for large format. You can find a lot of good information at the lfphoto.info site, and by searching the web for pages dedicated to LF lenses. There's a surprising amount of information available.

I don't think that f/5.6 is going to cause a problem for you with depth of field with longer lenses, and as I stated above you can alway reduce your in-focus area using camera movements. It might be worth keeping in mind that most LF lenses don't reach their finest performance until they're stopped down; for portraiture shooting wide-open is good because most lenses are a bit soft which will smooth out the skin of your subjects. For landscape work, you might have to avoid shooting wide-open (depending on the effect you want).

The cameras you mentioned in your post are all fine machines. I'd recommend that you estimate the weight of the kit you're considering (you can find the weight for almost all cameras and lenses either on the manufacturer web sites or listed in reviews), and try cycling for a while with a pack loaded with dead weight that's about the size you think you'll need for your kit. It should be pretty easy to figure out if you'll be able to carry the various cameras. (I never thought I'd be able to hike with 40 pounds on my back, but it turned out that a well-fitted backpack actually made it pretty easy by taking the weight off of my back and putting it onto my hips. What you put the equipment in counts as much as how much equipment you plan to carry.)

I think you'll be able to find a satisfactory kit for $3000 that includes one of the cameras you've listed (even cheaper used, if you buy from a trusted supplier who will allow a return if you're not happy), a great 180mm or 210mm lens, as well as a good 6x9 back and a cheap (but working) 6x12 back.

One other camera that you might consider (I've not actually seen one but have ready many rave reviews) is the Walker Titan XL. It's a 5x7 camera that you can get a 4x5 back for. It's a field camera, but it has plenty of movements and the bellows apparently allow a wide range of lenses with little fuss. It's actually machined out of plastic...something that everyone seems to think is a bad thing until they use the camera. Again, plenty of info is available on the web about the camera, and it might be a good choice for you. (Remember that if you get a 5x7 instead of a 4x5, you can get get 6x17mm backs that don't require an extension to the back of the camera. Since you're seemingly into wide pictures, I'd think that might interest you.

Best of luck with your decision.

Be well.
Dave

p.s. One other thought: You can always start with a few used lenses for the same price as a new lens, and then build up the kit later on. There are plenty of fabulous bargains out there in used lenses and you just might find that you don't have to buy a new lens. I've never bought a new lens myself (although I did get one as a present once), and I'm very happy with the quality of my kit.
 
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