Maybe you didn't know - your Leica is scratching your film

brbo · Jan 20, 2024

"Scratchgate"!!!

Apparently there are a lot of people realising that their Leicas leave scratches on the film (not just the new M6).

Of course, I was sceptical at first, but @Rudeofus pointed out in an unrelated thread that this is definitely happening. Lets see how big this problem really is...

ic-racer · Jan 20, 2024

Let us see the pictures! Also, diffusion vs condenser would be important to know too!

Rudeofus · Jan 20, 2024

brbo said:
"Scratchgate"!!!

Apparently there are a lot of people realising that their Leicas leave scratches on the film (not just the new M6).

I hope you are aware, that the thread I dug up here is a year old, and the story actually broke in late 2022. AFAIK this issue has been resolved some time ago (after the usual "Leica: Nope, there's nothing wrong", then the typical internet bruhaha, after which the problem was finally acknowledged and addressed by Leica). The problem did apparently affect a few of their older models, too, but the new M6 showed this problem very visibly.

Since you seem to turn this into a "poor old Rudeofus started halucinating" flame fest: maybe you trust Leica's admission of this problem ;-)

PS: I have no Leica, so I have no beef in this.

Rudeofus · Jan 20, 2024

ic-racer said:
Let us see the pictures! Also, diffusion vs condenser would be important to know too!

See here for a pic of affected film. And no, people will not put such a roll into an enlarger to find out, whether their 5+k camera needs service.

Maybe we can lay this to rest at some point, it's getting ridiculous.

ic-racer · Jan 20, 2024

Rudeofus said:
See here for a pic of affected film. And no, people will not put such a roll into an enlarger to find out, whether their 5+k camera needs service.

Maybe we can lay this to rest at some point, it's getting ridiculous.

No print in that link. Are you saying the scratch does not show in the prints?
I did a Google image search for M6 film scratches and found none. Must be a pretty rare thing.

brbo · Jan 20, 2024

Rudeofus said:
Since you seem to turn this into a "poor old Rudeofus started halucinating" flame fest: maybe you trust Leica's admission of this problem ;-)

Everybody on Photrio with the slightest interest in rangefinders was very aware of the M6 scratch problem.

What I was not aware of (probably many others weren't either) is that some people think that Leica has had this problem basically since Barnack days and that it's only the latest new M6 snafu that finally revealed the all too common defect.

P.S. I do own a Leica. In my defence, both of them combined were less than one fifth of the price of a new M6. What I'm saying is, I'm not a dentist and I've told horror stories dealing with Leica before. They do NOT like to deal with people who are poor and use their cameras, that's for sure. Still, they did make a number of fine cameras and I guess most of them had pressure plates that didn't scratch film. But this poll might prove me wrong, so here it is...

Rudeofus · Jan 21, 2024

brbo said:
What I was not aware of (probably many others weren't either) is that some people think that Leica has had this problem basically since Barnack days and that it's only the latest new M6 snafu that finally revealed the all too common defect.

The way I interpret this phenomenon is, that pressure plates are critical components with very tight tolerances and stiff requirements on surface finish. If a camera type is heavily used, as many M cameras undoubtedly were, some wear and tear will happen, and some (but certainly not all) of these pressure plates will inevitably become scratched, corroded, whatever over so many decades. That's not a common defect or a sign of production problems (unlike the new M6). Trust me: I have my own share of broken camera equipment, some of which is frequently described as unbreakable.

Next important point: not all scratches are created equal. Some will be huge, like the one shown in that article, others will be purely cosmetic and may not even show up in enlargements. Doesn't matter, though: once the internet starts chatting about scratches and Leica stupidly denies an obvious issue, many looking at film with the tiniest scratches will panic and send their camera in for repairs. That may not be rational behavior, but it is to be expected, and it would explain the sudden depletion of M4 pressure plates.

brbo said:
Still, they did make a number of fine cameras and I guess most of them had pressure plates that didn't scratch film.

Fully agree. While I personally never got the hang of RF cameras, many people around me love them, use them effectively and speak lots of good things about their Leicas. A production problem with one of their new cameras (plus Leica's silly reaction at first) put a bright spotlight on a problem, that could also come from wear&tear in older cameras and sent many owners of these older cameras into a frenzy. The vast majority of older Leica camera will most likely not have this issue, and new M6 cameras sold today will also not have it.

Rudeofus · Jan 21, 2024

ic-racer said:
No print in that link. Are you saying the scratch does not show in the prints?
I did a Google image search for M6 film scratches and found none. Must be a pretty rare thing.

I contacted that friend of mine, who a year ago tried to get a working new M6 and gave up after three scratchy ones. Most people's dark room time is limited, so we don't print our scratched film rolls first. He then had to send his scratched film roll together with the camera to Leica service and hasn't got it back. If this was the common procedure, then it's unlikely that we'll see scans or prints showing this issue. I don't expect Leica to come forward with test prints either.

PS: every one saw the Boeing MAX 9 with the missing door plug, but nobody every saw images of the other MAX 9 planes with loose bolts. No problem then ?

brbo · Jan 21, 2024

Rudeofus said:
Doesn't matter, though: once the internet starts chatting about scratches and Leica stupidly denies an obvious issue, many looking at film with the tiniest scratches will panic and send their camera in for repairs. That may not be rational behavior, but it is to be expected, and it would explain the sudden depletion of M4 pressure plates.

I believe @Huss was one of the first to get the new M6 and found a number of problems on his new camera. Leica acknowledged the problem right away as you can see in the thread I linked to previously.

Still unsure of your source of information of M4 pressure plate shortage being the result of the M6 scratchgate. In the other thread we have a user that was unable to get the pressure plate even years before the scratchgate blew up…

A question for all people that don’t own a Leica and heard about the scratchgate, have you checked all your cameras and had them repaired?

Rudeofus · Jan 21, 2024

brbo said:
I believe @Huss was one of the first to get the new M6 and found a number of problems on his new camera. Leica acknowledged the problem right away as you can see in the thread I linked to previously.

Good for @Huss , glad it worked out quickly. That friend of mine (he's not here on photrio) went through 3 iterations, with month long waiting periods each and every time, and "We've never seen this before" although the internet was already filled to the brim with reports. Different Leica shops may have handled this differently, or a person even able to get "one of the first new M6" may have enough street cred, that eventual complaints get resolved quickly.

brbo said:
Still unsure of your source of information of M4 pressure plate shortage being the result of the M6 scratchgate. In the other thread we have a user that was unable to get the pressure plate even years before the scratchgate blew up…

I did label my theory as "pure conjecture on my side", so obviously there are no reports or statistics I could point you to. Even apart from "scratch gate", if demand for analog Leica's goes up tenfold, then this puts a lot of pressure on the used market, which in turn puts pressure on service departments and spare part inventories. So I'll update my conjecture (which it still is) to "maybe a combination of rapidly growing used market demands and scratchgate putting a specific defect pattern into the spotlight caused M4 spare parts to become unavailable".

ic-racer · Jan 21, 2024

So the scratch is like a ghost, it does not show in the prints.
How about the raised area on the pressure plate causing the scratch, can we see that, or is it also invisible? The defect can't simply be burnished ?
If I get one of the scratchy cameras, I'd like to know what I'm up against.

Rudeofus · Jan 21, 2024

ic-racer said:
So the scratch is like a ghost, it does not show in the prints.

Nobody in his/her right mind would waste time on printing a scratched negative. Since I don't have a Leica, I may be the wrong person to ask for scratched and printed pics. Fortunately there are Leica owners here, who can personally attest to the fact, that the new Leica M6 experienced technical difficulties a year ago.

BTW only a small subset of Leica owners would ever see these scratches on final pics, since typical color processing today includes an ICE capable scanner, which would cover up all but the most obnoxious scratches on film. This leaves only B&W shooters to actually detect these scratches unprepared. The resulting prints would still go to trash, assuming "I probably scratched that roll during processing" or "oh darn my lab scratched the film". Once the internet spectacle broke loose, many new M6 customers inspected their film rolls (including color film), and there's a good chance, that some M3/M4/Mwhatever owners also suddenly started looking. Some of these scratches were probably small enough to be invisible in prints/scans and would not warrant a repair/replacement/return, but I guess that Leica owners have different attitudes and expectations towards small faults and defects than Holga owners.

ic-racer said:
How about the raised area on the pressure plate causing the scratch, can we see that, or is it also invisible? The defect can't simply be burnished ?
If I get one of the scratchy cameras, I'd like to know what I'm up against.

How about you familiarize yourself with the situation? The new M6 was proven defective as shipped, Leica acknowledged this fact after a while and eventually provided a fix for this situation to all affected customers. This is, as I had been told here in this thread, "old news and common knowledge". The source of these scratches has been properly determined and addressed, no need for second guesses and internet expertise here. And no, you'd have to try hard to get a scratchy M6 now, since the problem was solved 6 months ago, the faulty M6 were serviced. The new M6 sells like hotcakes, so it's unlikely that you will find a leftover faulty one in the shelves. You might receive one if you buy used from one of these "I need a fancy camera for my glass cabinet" folks.

MattKing · Jan 21, 2024

ic-racer said:
So the scratch is like a ghost, it does not show in the prints.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the scratch would impact the film substrate, but not the emulsion.
My experience tells me that scratches on the substrate come in all sorts of flavours, and their impact on the final image is dependent on a whole slew of factors, including the light source, the workflow, whether optically printed or scanned or digitized using a digital camera, etc.
There is a decent chance that there are a few scratched Leica RF pressure plates out there owned by photographers who have never noticed the scratch, because of what they do with their developed film.
Just as there are unscratched pressure plates out there, that are being blamed for sloppy handling.

mshchem · Jan 21, 2024

Mostly my 35mm stuff just sits. Thus no films are scratched

ic-racer · Jan 21, 2024

One pretty much can't run any 35mm film through any camera without tiny, insignificant scratches on the base. They are always there and don't show. Especially with a diffusion enlarger.

Here is a stack of negatives I was editing last night. Any random strip from any camera shows these marks with a microscope or macro lens.

logan2z · Jan 21, 2024

I recently bought a Plustek scanner to replace my Epson flatbed for scanning 35mm negatives. Suddenly I started seeing white lines in my scans that I never saw before. I carefully inspected the negatives and could see corresponding fine lines on the base side. which I assume were caused by friction against the camera's pressure plate. I carefully checked my Epson scans of the same negatives and no lines are present, and I see nothing on my darkroom prints. I assume the different light source in the Plustek is making these fine scratches more apparent.

Since the lines don't show on darkroom prints and the faint lines in scans are easy enough to eliminate in Lightroom/Photoshop I'm not too concerned.

chriscrawfordphoto · Jan 21, 2024

Here's my theory on why some people get scratched negs with Leicas. I used to have a couple of the original M6 cameras that I had to sell in hard times after I had a stroke in 2013. A few years ago, I began rebuilding my Leica kit, but M6 prices had tripled in the few years since I sold mine, so I bought an M3 and an M4-2. The M4-2 has the same loading system as the M6 (and M4, M5, M7, and MP). You stick the end of the film into the take-up spool, which is shaped like a flower, then wind the film. It is supposed to wind around the take-up spool tightly, but I noticed that sometimes, the film slips a little and winds so loosely that it scrapes the inside of the camera, as in the illustration I made below. That will scratch the base side of the film when it happens!

SchwinnParamount · Jan 21, 2024

"A few weeks ago it was reported to us that Leica had acknowledged that a batch of faulty pressure plates had made it into a number of new M6 cameras"
1. It is a pressure plate problem on a sub-set of the new M6 cameras, not ALL Leica cameras
2. Pressure plate (if scratching) would not be scratching the emulsion, which is on the lens facing surface of the film.

chriscrawfordphoto · Jan 21, 2024

SchwinnParamount said:
"A few weeks ago it was reported to us that Leica had acknowledged that a batch of faulty pressure plates had made it into a number of new M6 cameras"
1. It is a pressure plate problem on a sub-set of the new M6 cameras, not ALL Leica cameras
2. Pressure plate (if scratching) would not be scratching the emulsion, which is on the lens facing surface of the film.

The problem I saw with my cameras scratched the base side, not the emulsion side.

brbo · Jan 23, 2024

chriscrawfordphoto said:
The problem I saw with my cameras scratched the base side, not the emulsion side.

Well, the "theory" you described in post #17 can't explain scratches on the base side. Leicas wind the film with emulsion facing out, so if you actually got scratches from the body shell because of the loose winding on the tulip they could only have been on the emulsion side.

Scott J. · Feb 3, 2024

For what it's worth, my near-mint-condition M7 (I'd estimate it's seen fewer than 30 rolls) pretty consistently leaves scratches on the non-emulsion side of every roll that goes through it. The scratches show up easily in scans captured with a Nikon LS-50 and an Imacon Flextight Precision II.

I initially assumed I was to blame and tried to troubleshoot every conceivable handling problem (e.g., loading, unloading, developing, scanning, etc.), but eventually came around to conceding that the problem was intrinsic to the camera, itself. I don't know how widespread this problem is on the M7, but it has me wondering if the pressure plate or parts from the film transport mechanism were repurposed for the new M6.

Maybe you didn't know - your Leica is scratching your film

Does your Leica scratch the film

Yes

No

Yes, yes, yes (scratches on more than one of my Leica bodies)

No, no, no (scratches on none of my Leica bodies)

brbo

ic-racer

Rudeofus

Rudeofus

ic-racer

brbo

Rudeofus

Rudeofus

brbo

Rudeofus

ic-racer

Rudeofus

MattKing

Moderator

mshchem

ic-racer

logan2z

chriscrawfordphoto

SchwinnParamount

chriscrawfordphoto

brbo

Scott J.

Maybe you didn't know - your Leica is scratching your film

Does your Leica scratch the film

Yes

No

Yes, yes, yes (scratches on more than one of my Leica bodies)

No, no, no (scratches on none of my Leica bodies)

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