Maybe It's Time

pbromaghin said:

I don't know why everybody worries about Harman being owned by Pemberstone. What they most certainly are NOT, is a bank trying to rape, pillage, plunder, and throw away. Their strategy is to buy up small/medium sized companies that are leaders in their own niche market and bring them large-company resources to help them grow. I can't think of a much better place for Ilford to have landed when the principals who brought them out of bankruptcy decided to retire and cash in their chips.

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Totally agree, these folks will be standing up strong. Harman has smaller coating lines, very flexible, huge new presence on YouTube. To hell with Acros ,it's done and dead. FP4+ start a new love affair. Ilford makes everything I can't live without. I will be destroyed when Fujichrome dies, but I still have slides going back to 1949, that will give me plenty to look at. Pray for Kodak, I'm still in love with TMY2 and Portra, hopefully Ektachrome will be back. I bought a brand new Da Lite 60x60in screen today. They are going to have to pry film from my cold dead, blah blah blah.
Mike

RattyMouse said:

Maybe if I sell off my three main shooting cameras and stick with my cheaper cameras I'd feel better. Having nearly $8k locked up in film cameras feeling dismal about film's future may be a source of most of my agitation that I'm feeling right now. I'm thinking that if I were just shooting my Nikon FM2n, I could be much more relaxed.
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That's understandable and seems like a reasonable course of action.

faberryman said:

Films come and go. Photographers adjust. Embrace the change. There are still good emulsions out there.

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This post (and many other equally well-thought out comments) sums up my thinking about film.

For what they are worth, may I offer a few 'lateral' thoughts along those lines.

It seems natural for those of us who are "over 65" (considerably older in my case) to devote time thinking about our good film gear and what to do with it, or perhaps more to the point, what will happen to it. We are at the age where we have less time and not more time.

I too have been offloading equipment - my Hasselblads, a few Rollei TLRs, other 'bits and pieces' cameras and several boxes of accessories and darkroom items I'd almost never used or not used at all. More so to ensure the gear will be used by others who valued it more than I did/do. My Nikkormats and old Nikkors I'll probably give on permanent loan to family members keen on shooting film while they can. I'll keep one enlarger (LPL 7700) but the little-used Leitz 1c with a Multigrade filter head has an interested buyer for a fair price so out it goes. Also my Contax G1 kits a huge lot of Ilford RC and FB (paper 50-60 boxes) paper including a lot of the old (classic) Galerie in unopened 11x14 and 16x20 packs,worth a small fortune when bought new. Partly for the spare money but mostly to clear the space. Film I'll keep for now. So one fridge will stay for , the second fridge will go to Goodwill. Result, more space, and a little spare money to play with. I was thinking of a new Fuji digital camera, but no, not now. No rewards for traitors to the film cause...

In 2019 I may clear the rest of my gear and go (almost) entirely to the Dark (D) Side.

One by one my older photographer friends are doing the same. Clearing out, selling up. For mostly the same reasons - to dispose. The few who're still shooting a lot of film are buying in bulk for small discounts or looking for expired stocks on Ebay.

I personally won't suffer much from Fuji's latest decision, having never shot much Fuji slide film or taken to Neopan/Acros. I have 40 rolls of Acros 400 left but I can't remember the last time I shot any, Australian and Asian daylight is too harsh for its look.

As I see it the 'rot' for Kodak film really began in the 1980s when Eastman sold out to the MBA bean counter and short-term balance sheet credo and made the first of many ill-considered decisions which fatally damaged its traditional markets and alienated many shooters.

But this has happened every decade since I began shooting in the 1960s. Remember Ansco/GAF? long gone. Ditto DuPont. Gevaert and Agfa also abandoned us. Rollei produces a range of OK films, but for how long? Adox came and went and have returned, but their new films are too expensive for many of us retirees in Oz anyway.

China should be producing a much larger range of films, but they aren't. At least not yet? Why ever not?

Realistically speaking, out of the USA and a handful of other countries, what will doom the market for film will be the high cost of the bloody stuff.

Summing it all up, time passes, things change. Nothing stays the same. We must embrace this or it will eat us up.

Ratty, it is not just film. Many artist colors of higher quality brands have bit the dust along with favorite papers. WInNewton no longer even lists my favorite brush in their catalog. And try to buy quality marble sculpting tools. Made in one small place in Italy. One reason (among many) Radio Shak folded is because fewer people have electronics as a hobby. My daughter even finds it difficult to find toys that a 3 or 4 year old can just play with that isn’t “educational”
Luckily there are still bw films around.

ozmoose said:

Realistically speaking, out of the USA and a handful of other countries, what will doom the market for film will be the high cost of the bloody stuff.

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That's right. The end of film will be one of increased expense of producing a product over supplying to a continually diminishing market that has and will continue to shy away from persistent price increases. The event horizon is one where more and more products are pulled because they are unpopular or unprofitable (ACROS 100) and/or economically not feasible to manufacture for a market that is barely a splinter of what it was 18 years ago.

The latest Ilford price list showing their increases makes for concerning reading (Dead Link Removed), and I expect Fujifilm will be announcing an increase around August or September this year, along with some much more seriious news in mid-2019.

BrianShaw said:

That is very important. I know I’ve left other hobbies and one prior career field because it no longer was satisfying. One should not be a slave to their hobbies or careers, or be made bad because they make a personal choice. Good luck with your decision and, if you choose, the sale of your gear.

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+1
There is nothing wrong with ending up with photography. Time will help you to find a new energy, not matter in which field. It happend to me several times.
Petr

eddie said:

I don't know how long you've been using film, but anyone who has been using film for a few decades has experienced the loss of favorite materials. Those with a passion for photography adapt. I think, if your interest in photography is real, you will too.

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Yep - Eddie is onto something there.
On the other hand you may be losing your mojo for photography and the loss of ACROS has simply crystallised it.
Follow your heart - into or out of photography - life is more than than the sum of our hobbies and interests.
Good journey to you
Tom

eddie said:

I don't know how long you've been using film, but anyone who has been using film for a few decades has experienced the loss of favorite materials. Those with a passion for photography adapt. I think, if your interest in photography is real, you will too.

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I agree !

Poisson Du Jour said:

That's right. The end of film will be one of increased expense of producing a product over supplying to a continually diminishing market that has and will continue to shy away from persistent price increases.

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With Fuji, we arent even given a chance to pay higher prices to keep a film in production. Reala 100 was one of the cheapest color films around just before it was discontinued. It was my primary color film and I bought a lot of it all because it was so cheap. Then, gone. No warning, no rise in price, nothing.

Acros was THE cheapest black and white film in 120 size until 2 weeks ago. Did Fuji raise the price to make it more profitable? They could have raised it $6 per pro pack just to reach Ilford's price. Did they? Nope. Gone. Didn't even try.

This is more than about money I think.

RattyMouse said:

Really. Acros must sell an order of magnitude more than E6 films. How Fujifilm cannot keep this product in production shows me how much they want to rid themselves of their film legacy.

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I doubt this. Take a look at Fuji's most recent annual report - their imaging division mentions color negative, color reversal, and instant films separately as as "major products" for their imaging division, but black and white film or paper haven't even been a blip on that radar since at least 2009. It's quite likely then that Fuji sells more Velvia than the entire Neopan line put together, even back when it was a whole product line and not just ACROS 100.

RattyMouse said:

With Fuji, we arent even given a chance to pay higher prices to keep a film in production. Reala 100 was one of the cheapest color films around just before it was discontinued. It was my primary color film and I bought a lot of it all because it was so cheap. Then, gone. No warning, no rise in price, nothing.

Acros was THE cheapest black and white film in 120 size until 2 weeks ago. Did Fuji raise the price to make it more profitable? They could have raised it $6 per pro pack just to reach Ilford's price. Did they? Nope. Gone. Didn't even try.

This is more than about money I think.

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It's just as likely that they already lost money (or close to it) on their last production run, and they decided to pack it in when they neared the end of the freezer. As much as we might chatter about ACROS being such a fantastic black and white film or the cheapest or that we'd pay more for it, the numbers really don't add up - if it were a meaningful seller, even on the scale of Provia and Velvia, it would get a mention on the annual report.

They could have raised the price, but the production of a new master roll (especially at scale of Fuji machinery) is going to be a pretty substantial roll of the dice on how long it will take to sell that film. Fuji last raised prices on ACROS near the beginning of 2016, not very long ago in market terms. They've got pretty good forecasting, then, on "For every $1 we raise the price of a roll of ACROS, we sell X fewer per month. That means one master roll will take Y months longer to sell. We pay storage and distribution costs of $Z/month for every master roll or part thereof still in inventory." If Y times $Z is a losing deal vs. the theoretical profits you can make on a master roll, unless you have a very strong prestige halo (having it around drives sales of other products, like pro SLRs help drive sales of consumer models "because that's what the pros use") your product's going to die.

I like ACROS too (I just dropped $400 on enough supply to keep going for a while) and I wish it weren't so, but ultimately, Fuji is a pretty conservative company, the Japanese job market is still pretty bad, and no Fuji product manager is going to bet his career that "This time, no really guys, this time, we're going to break trends and outsell projections," not on a legacy product that doesn't even have a category worth mentioning on the annual report.

shashinzukuri said:

I doubt this. Take a look at Fuji's most recent annual report - their imaging division mentions color negative, color reversal, and instant films separately as as "major products" for their imaging division, but black and white film or paper haven't even been a blip on that radar since at least 2009. It's quite likely then that Fuji sells more Velvia than the entire Neopan line put together, even back when it was a whole product line and not just ACROS 100.

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I checked Fujifilm's last quarterly report and last annual report. I find no mention of either reversal film nor Provia or Velvia. I find no mention of color negative film. I only see INSTAX mentioned. Please show me what I have missed.

shashinzukuri said:

It's just as likely that they already lost money (or close to it) on their last production run, and they decided to pack it in when they neared the end of the freezer. As much as we might chatter about ACROS being such a fantastic black and white film or the cheapest or that we'd pay more for it, the numbers really don't add up - if it were a meaningful seller, even on the scale of Provia and Velvia, it would get a mention on the annual report.

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I have checked both the last quarterly and annual report. Provia and Velvia are not mentioned. Please demonstrate otherwise.

shashinzukuri said:

I like ACROS too (I just dropped $400 on enough supply to keep going for a while) and I wish it weren't so, but ultimately, Fuji is a pretty conservative company, the Japanese job market is still pretty bad, and no Fuji product manager is going to bet his career that "This time, no really guys, this time, we're going to break trends and outsell projections," not on a legacy product that doesn't even have a category worth mentioning on the annual report.

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I see no evidence that any E6 films are mentioned by Fuji in their investor relations documents. On the contrary, E6 labs are closing at a good rate all across the world.

E6 films continue to be short dated on many sales. E6 film is easy to find expired.

RattyMouse said:

I checked Fujifilm's last quarterly report and last annual report. I find no mention of either reversal film nor Provia or Velvia. I find no mention of color negative film. I only see INSTAX mentioned. Please show me what I have missed.

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Download their complete investor packet from their earnings presentations page (direct link here). Reversal film is called out specifically on page 38 of the Integrated Report (next to the Quicksnap disposable 35mms of all things, just to give you a sense of proportion).

I'm not saying that E6 is a healthy market at all, just that it's a bigger blip on the radar for Fuji than ACROS.

RattyMouse said:

E6 films continue to be short dated on many sales. E6 film is easy to find expired.

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Which would tend to indicate that they are not selling well. Low demand leads to risk of being discontinued.

Richard.L said:

plant is near many homes

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Right. It is about a mile from the end of the Manchester runway and surrounded by homes and open fields. The current residents of the area object to the added traffic and stress on the school system that developing the property for residential use would bring. I wonder how loudly they would object if somebody decided to replace the current sleepy and under-utilized factory with a very busy one operating at full capacity.

pbromaghin said:

Right. It is about a mile from the end of the Manchester runway and surrounded by homes and open fields. The current residents of the area object to the added traffic and stress on the school system that developing the property for residential use would bring. I wonder how loudly they would object if somebody decided to replace the current sleepy and under-utilized factory with a very busy one operating at full capacity.

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Did they object because they pre-visualized what the post environment would be hence forth?

RattyMouse said:

Fujifilm isn't going to get a single $1 from me. Ever.

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Well, after I wrote my first comment in yours thread, the 13 Friday hit me. It looks like Ilford is going to impose price increase on film and paper to the level I marked as cut off price level to stop using film as my main creative media.

shashinzukuri said:

Download their complete investor packet from their earnings presentations page (direct link here). Reversal film is called out specifically on page 38 of the Integrated Report (next to the Quicksnap disposable 35mms of all things, just to give you a sense of proportion).

I'm not saying that E6 is a healthy market at all, just that it's a bigger blip on the radar for Fuji than ACROS.

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Thank you for that. I have read a lot of Fujifilm financial reports but never saw the integrated reports before. First time I've ever seen non INSTAX film mentioned at any time, yet the item you pointed out is hardly definitive about their product line.

faberryman said:

Which would tend to indicate that they are not selling well. Low demand leads to risk of being discontinued.

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My point exactly.

You never seen nearly expired Acros. Every batch of Acros I buy has nearly 1-2 years of life from the expiration date.

Acros wasn't my thing, but it had a very distinctive look, very smooth gradation and nice middle greys. I'd think practically about how to obtain those qualities by another means, if that's what motivates you. Try one of the films that's readily available in a larger format, for instance. It won't be the same, and the change in format will change other things, but everything changes, and one adapts. I wouldn't worry about corporate loyalty or decisions that I can't personally affect. I'd rather use what's available as long as it's out there.

I always got expired rolls of Acros from a major Los Angeles camera store to use as test rolls and freebies.

RattyMouse said:

Maybe I'm foolish but I never saw the loss of Acros coming. I probably lived in firm denial that this film would be discontinued or if it would, it would go the very last. Clearly Fujifilm has lost all interest in standard film photography, despite their brazen lies to the contrary.

This past week has been tremendously upsetting. As stated in other posts, Neopan Acros has been my primary film ever since I returned to film photography, now almost 7 years ago. Looking through my 8 binders of negatives, I see two main monochrome films that make up the very majority of film that I have used; Acros, and TMAX400. I was so royally screwed by TMAX400, losing tremendous numbers of images due to poor quality that I was forced to drop that film, even though I loved it dearly. I've stock piled a nice stash of Neopan 400 since then but have yet to fire off a single roll!

Now Acros is gone and I find my passion for film photography draining away quite quickly. Sure there are other films out there, but each one has their own baggage that makes me more than a little hesitant to place my hopes and future on them.

Kodak is swirling the drain again and it will be a major miracle if they can get through 2019. Since I'm primarily a 120 shooter I won't trust them that the paper issue has been solved too. I've lost far too many images to place my trust in their film.

Ilford has been bought out by private equity. My previous company was bought out by private equity and I know what it is like to be owned by "bankers". All they care about is short term profits. Long term stability simply is not on their radar. Long term stability will happily be sacrificed if short term profits can be increased. Investment in the future is not part of their vocabulary.

I have a LOT of pricey film equipment. My Fujifilm GF670W, GF670, and GA645 have served me well for many years. Just a short time ago I picked up a Fujifilm TX-1 w/all 3 lenses. What a great camera with lenses that simply define sharpness. Finally, I have my Nikon FM2n w/6 lenses and a Canon 1V w/35L, 85L, and 100-400mm II L. Not to mention my fairly high end 120 scanner.

That's a lot of money invested in film equipment. I think right now if I could unload it with zero effort, I would, just to remove this sinking feeling that has infected me since the discontinuation of Acros. It came so out of the blue. I thought it was a bad joke when I first heard it but instead it turned into my film nightmare.

I had a huge load of Acros all lined up in my B & H cart the day they first opened up after Acros was discontinued. The stock market took a nice dip that day so I figured I'd hold off awhile on the purchase and wait for a recovery (I day trade for fun during the day so watch the market closely). Who knew stock would disappear literally in one day?

Just thinking out loud here, trying to get my thoughts together. I need to unload this baggage because if a hobby doesnt bring joy, then it's time to move on.

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I know what you mean.
Lots of my films of choice have gone extinct, smo I have frozen stocks of, but it's not the same especially since some are over 30 years past date.
But, I've always found a new film to learn - and often enough been pleasantly surprised, although I've yet to find anything like Agfa APX 25. Or Panatomic, the tonality is pure cream.

Over the decades I have seen films come and go. Instead of only watching them go, I stockpile both films that I regularly use and any desirable films that are being discontinued. I still have many rolls of Kodak UltraColor 400 in 135-36 and 120 as will as a case of unopened Kodak VividColor 160 4"x5" film boxes.

Sirius Glass said:

Over the decades I have seen films come and go. Instead of only watching them go, I stockpile both films that I regularly use and any desirable films that are being discontinued. I still have many rolls of Kodak UltraColor 400 in 135-36 and 120 as will as a case of unopened Kodak VividColor 160 4"x5" film boxes.

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Ultra-Vivid color enhanced films are easy to replicate the effects of, just eat a lot of mescaline.

Sirius Glass said:

Over the decades I have seen films come and go. Instead of only watching them go, I stockpile both films that I regularly use and any desirable films that are being discontinued. I still have many rolls of Kodak UltraColor 400 in 135-36 and 120 as will as a case of unopened Kodak VividColor 160 4"x5" film boxes.

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I didnt even get the chance. Acros was gone before the announcement of its discontinuation was even confirmed.

Many of my favourite shots were taken on film now viewed as antique. Look at the book of Magnum contact sheets, the rebate numbers show extinct films. Koudelka even used cine stock in his Exakta.
If it was good for people before the 1970s, traditional film stocks are good enough for me.