Maximum black printing basis

seadrive said:

It is used for making fine prints, as a jumping-off point, to tell you what you have to work with. From there, it's up to you.

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Yup, I agree - it's a great way to make work prints.

I put that last bit in there as a pre-emptive strike against the posts slagging us (wrongly) for making fine prints *only* at max black times.

Murray

MurrayMinchin said:

Yup, I agree - it's a great way to make work prints.

I put that last bit in there as a pre-emptive strike against the posts slagging us (wrongly) for making fine prints *only* at max black times.

Murray

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Well this whole thing about work prints vs. fine prints is another conumdrum that I believe is easily solvable. First all, any print short of the fine print is a work print. Fred Picker believed (and proved) that you can go from a "work print" to a fine print in one printing session if you have all of your processes properly callibrated as seadrive mentioned. That is, once you determine that a negative has the capability to make a proper proof (i.e. a negative that is properly exposed and has all of the emotional information that you previsualized), you should be able to make a "fine print" from that negative in one printing session of about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Fred demonstrated that it is more wasteful to make so-called work prints in the darkroom to be set aside and studied and then make fine prints later. Many photographers won't stick with one negative until it is completed because of the focus that is placed upon volume rather than quality. That is the whole point of coming up with a properly exposed and properly developed negative. His tape on this subject is well worth viewing...

seadrive said:

I know this thread is a bit long in the tooth, and I apologize for bringing it back up, but someone has to stop Fred Picker from turning in his grave, and it might as well be me!
The MTFMB test can only be done through a sheet of film that is unexposed, but developed normally. This is referred to as "film base + fog", which has more density than the edge of the film...

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Can you be clearer on what is making Fred spin? Is it that the test is valid for sheet film but not roll film ("can only be done through a sheet of film...")? Would 9.5-inch aero roll film be disqualified whereas 4x5 sheet film is allowed? Or is the test valid for the center of any film but not the edges? Does this mean that my 30 years of max black testing for Minox rollfilm has been for nought? Minox film is certainly not sheetfilm, and I am having difficulty determining where the middle ends and the edge begins. Or is the concept of developed normally the key? What if I develop tired? Or drunk? I thought I had this down but now I am totally confused!

j

the biggest key to making a fine print is knowing what a fine print ought to look like. You have to spend some time looking at prints so you have some basis for what you are attempted to accomplish. you can have all the max black you want but it you dont know what the other tones look like and how to get them on the neg and then from the neg to the paper, you will waste a lot of time and paper. Split printing is the easiest way to get to the fine print in my estimation.

lee\c

max black

I totally agree with Lee on this one. I used to do alot of testing ala FRED and it was good priming for the future;but it has to end somewhere and that somewhere is making prints. Go and get out to some Galleries and SEE some really well made prints. Better yet take a trip to a major city where there is a constant rotation of excellant work being shown. I spent the better part of my
highschool years ducking out of school and going into NYC to look at prints in either museums or the galleries. The next best thing you can do is to buy something you like and put it on your wall. That way there is something to compare it to. For $25 I will send anyone a full scale 5x7 contact print archivally
processed and mounted-sent right to your front door.Money gladly refunded if not happy. PM if interested.
Best, Peter Schrager

jon koss said:

Does this mean that my 30 years of max black testing for Minox rollfilm has been for nought? ... I thought I had this down but now I am totally confused!
j

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Hey Jon, if you've been "max black testing" the same film for 30 years, maybe you're doing something wrong. Why not start over? Who knows, maybe you'll get it right this time!

It's all good. A sheet, a frame, whatever...

Jeezuz Christ! You guys really do make photography harder than it needs to be.

FB+F = Zone 0

When you do film testing to determine your Exposure Index and Development Time for Highlights, your FB+F is your "guide". Without it, you won't have a means of validating your other zones. In the darkroom you simply print for maximum black on the FB+F frame. Once you have found the time for maximum black, that means that all other zones should line up as well given that the negative has proper Zone density. Expose the Zone I frame for that same given maximum black's time. Put it side by side with the maximum black print. It should be slightly lighter than the maximum black. If it's too black, that means you need to decrease your ISO. If it's too light, then you need to increase your ISO. For Zone VIII testing, expose it for the same time as well and put the result next to an unexposed paper and compare the whites.. This is all just a means to and end.

The FB+F test off a regular image will simply tell you exactly what is on the negative. It is NOT intended for making a fine print. Making a fine print is about expression, or departing from reality. With the Maximum Black exposure, you are merely representing on paper the absolute Zone's that was placed on the negative. Thats it! Printing is not about representing absolutely what was on the negative, it's about conveying how you felt during the moment of exposure.

The start of a fine print begins with the best straight print you can make. A straight print that contains excellent shadow detail and excellent highlights. Then you can proceed to express your idea through burning/dodging/flashing/etc.

Andy

djklmnop said:

The FB+F test off a regular image will simply tell you exactly what is on the negative. It is NOT intended for making a fine print. Making a fine print is about expression, or departing from reality. With the Maximum Black exposure, you are merely representing on paper the absolute Zone's that was placed on the negative. Thats it! Printing is not about representing absolutely what was on the negative, it's about conveying how you felt during the moment of exposure.

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MurrayMinchin said:

Good method for PROOF and early WORK prints...not fine prints.
(Had to say that again because somebody will think this is used for fine prints )

MurrayMinchin said:

I put that last bit in there as a pre-emptive strike against the posts slagging us (wrongly) for making fine prints *only* at max black times.

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HeeHeeHee...told you so

Murray

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I'm the schmuck who started this thread some time ago after getting an analyzer with this indexing function built in. Envisioning results is such a personal thing that one could easily say that every response is correct. I still am amazed at how close to my final print I can get with a solid first test print using my current equipment. It takes an understanding of one's materials, experience and even a bit of intuition, but to be 90%+ there on the first print gives great insight into what is truly in the negative and a better start on making manipulation decisions.

I have found it especially useful with catechol and pyro soups as the highlights hold up so well with less manipulating. I've been doing quite a few projects that require a rather large amount of prints to be done in very short order. It is especially helpful to combine controlled lighting and film behavior expectations with confident first print results for this sort of duty. On the other hand, I'm still doing multiple prints and burning/dodging when getting a single fine print just as envisioned but the system gets me further down the path to the final print by showing me what's in the negative and paper. Until I had equipment that had me at least trying this approach, I too, would have been very sceptical of approaching printing this.

A formula approach to every print is certainly not called for but at the same time, a bit of pure white and a bit of black in a print can add to the visual interest when it's possble to include this and appropriate to the image.

djklmnop said:

The start of a fine print begins with the best straight print you can make. A straight print that contains excellent shadow detail and excellent highlights. Then you can proceed to express your idea through burning/dodging/flashing/etc. Andy

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Really nice work Andy! Ansel Adams himself could not have coaxed a print of such bucolic tranquility from that appallingly contrasty work print.

j

jon koss said:

Really nice work Andy! Ansel Adams himself could not have coaxed a print of such bucolic tranquility from that appallingly contrasty work print.

j

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I love you too!