Maximizing density range (for alt prints) from FP4+?

[ProfessorC1983]

I'm trying to experiment with more alt-process techniques, but beyond traditional cyanotype and gum bichromate they all require a much higher density range than I generally get from negatives, even when trying to "overdevelop". With FP4+, my standard procedure is expose at EI 200 and develop in Pyrocat-HD 2:2:100 at 10min, with 1min initial agitation plus 4 inversions/min. With that process I occasionally get a high SBR shot up around the 1.2-1.3 DR range (DMax around 1.4, DMin ~0.15) but mostly it's solidly in the 0.8-1.0 range.

What should I be doing if I want really bulletproof alt-process negs from FP4+, around the 1.8-2.0 range? If I keep exposure the same but add 20-25% to dev time, the DMin seems to start creeping up as well. And of course exposing less doesn't seem to be the answer either. Should I be exploring semi-stand/minimal agitation?

If anyone has a good process for making VDB/salt/carbon/albumen etc. negatives with FP4+ I'd love to hear more!

 

[radiant]

I've been struggling with the almost the same question as you, except for Foma 100 and for salt printing.

I think I can get enough density but it is depended on light conditions. I have to blast full power from my studio flash next to the subject and shoot against black background. I'm overexposing the highlights and limiting exposure to the shadows by directing the flash.

I develop with 2x time in Rodinal and my shadows are pretty much near the base+fog, or maybe the same density.

Next up is to try this outdoors, the spring has sprung here so it is decent time to go out with my 5x7" camera..

My IG has some salts made with this technique: http://instagram.com/vedostuu

 

[Lachlan Young]

Ilford PQ Universal,1+9. Somewhere in the order of 8 mins. If that fails, go to a stronger dilution or use Phenisol/ D-19 (D-19b is the published formula you want - or ID-19), then D-11, D-8 as each step up in contrast. PQ Universal is very, very low fog.

 

[Craig75]

you dont need a dense negative for salt printing, just a higher contrast one than you might use for darkroom paper. You have to grossly over expose to start blocking shadows up, instead you just keep printing highlights in and making print softer and softer. Easiest thing I found was just to change the sizing of the paper to alter d-max of print and stick to minimum exposure time needed to get a decent black without printing in highlights too much.

I only made about 20 though but that was my experience

 

[radiant]

you dont need a dense negative for salt printing, just a higher contrast one than you might use for darkroom paper.

Yes - overally dense negatives wont' do a thing but I guess everyone understands that "dense" in this context means dense = density of the highlights.

You have to grossly over expose to start blocking shadows up

I think is partly correct. It depends on the scene; ifyour shadows are like abyss, this works. If your shadows aren't really in deep shadow / non-reflective, you also increase the shadow density.

Easiest thing I found was just to change the sizing of the paper to alter d-max of print

This is new information. How does it work?

I want my negatives to be long in exposure, more than being just contrasty. Of course one can underexpose and overexpose to get more DR but then you end up with really contrasty stuff without any details in shadows..

 

[lecarp]

With FP4+ you should be rating your film at a speed closer to 32, going to 200 is moving in the wrong direction. Then choose an appropriate developer such as pyro or a compensating developer as needed and adjust your development time and agitation to control your highlights.

FP4+ is a nice film but not necessarily the best choice for alt, particularly the noble processes.
The contrast can be difficult to control.

 

[Craig75]

Yes - overally dense negatives wont' do a thing but I guess everyone understands that "dense" in this context means dense = density of the highlights.

If you look at OP he is saying he feels he needs more density than just overdeveloping - that shouldnt be the case with salt printing from my experience.

I think is partly correct. It depends on the scene; ifyour shadows are like abyss, this works. If your shadows aren't really in deep shadow / non-reflective, you also increase the shadow density.

I mean if you print a step wedge - blocking the wedge up is very hard in salt printing - you just end up making the image softer and softer rather than blocking the image up. It could just be a case of OP overexposing the image rather than the negative (because i've done that....)

This is new information. How does it work?

If you coat straight onto the paper more the silver sinks into the paper creating a softer image than if you use a size and have the silver sit on top of the paper. The type of size and dilution can help here to control contrast and dmax from my experience - I lost all my tests but that was my experience

I want my negatives to be long in exposure, more than being just contrasty. Of course one can underexpose and overexpose to get more DR but then you end up with really contrasty stuff without any details in shadows..

 

[awty]

I was processing some 24x30 cm xray negatives on the weekend in my usual Pyro HD and ran out of part A on my last negative, so I grabbed some ilfosal 3 @ +14 mix for 7,5mins and got a very nice dense neg. Havent tried contact printing with it yet, but does look better that the pyro hd negs. Stain doesnt take to xray film very well.
Comparing between pyro and ilfosal 3, the ilfosal has noticeably less contrast and more flat negative.
No science was involved.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

FP4 is an excellent film for alt processes. I've used it for several processes, including my favourite, carbon transfer. How are you measuring the density of your Pyrocat-HD negatives? Are you taking into account the stain? I also use this developer. EI 64.