Matt Board and Cutting Services

Michael Kadillak · Jul 14, 2006

Like many I am in need of high quality mat board and computerized cutting services at a good cost. Along these lines I have come across a gentleman that owns a framing business that has quoted me some prices for the product and services I am looking for and I wanted to see if this is the way to go and if there is any other interest in this regard.

Here is what I have established to share with the forum. I am using Michael's recommended sizes for 8x10, 11x14, and 8x20 as a reference point. The board that would be used would be Bainbridge 100% cotton rag that is museum quality and PH balanced. The mounting board would be 2 ply and the overmat would be 4 ply and the price includes the mount board AND the matching overmat cut by computer to the sizes below:

8x10 13x15" board size 8 1/4 x 10 1/4" opening $2.75/set

11x14 16x20" board size 10 3/4" x 13 3/4" opening $3.50/set

8x20 13" x 25" board size 8 /4" x 20 1/8" opening $4.92/set

The minimum order per size is 100 and shipping is at cost. The person offering the service is John Scholfield who is owner of Scholfield and Vose Framing (?)in Hamden CT.

I would appreciate telling me if the price is good, if the board is the right one to use and any other comments are much appreciated. I am at the point where I need product and as a result, I want to move forward irrespective of Superior Archival and what they want (or do not want) to do.

The reason that 8x20 is higher is because you cannot cut as many from a sheet of board so there is some waste.

Any updates, alternatives comments and or participation is both welcomed and appreciated.

Cheers!

c6h6o3 · Jul 14, 2006

Michael Kadillak said:
8x10 13x15" board size 8 1/4 x 10 1/4" opening $2.75/set

The size is wrong if you're attempting to duplicate Paula Chamlee's standard size. (I am assuming here, since you mentioned Superior Archival Materials, that the "Michael" referrred to in your post is Michael A. Smith.) The space between the photograph and the overmat is larger at the bottom where the signature goes. So for a horizontal mount the size would be more like 8 3/8 x 10 1/4 and a vertical would be something like 10 3/8 x 8 1/4. Also the position of the opening is different for horizontal and vertical mounts, since Michael and Paula do not center their images on the board.

The price seems ok but I suspect that I speak for a lot of photographers when I say that the use of Artcare Alpharag is non-negotiable and that Bainbridge board (excellent though it may be) will be unacceptable.

If he'll use Artcare board I'd be very interested in this service. Please keep us posted.

RalphLambrecht · Jul 14, 2006

Why do you use a thinner board for the mat? Why not use both of them at 4-ply?

Michael Kadillak · Jul 14, 2006

c6h6o3 said:
So for a horizontal mount the size would be more like 8 3/8 x 10 1/4 and a vertical would be something like 10 3/8 x 8 1/4. Also the position of the opening is different for horizontal and vertical mounts, since Michael and Paula do not center their images on the board.

The price seems ok but I suspect that I speak for a lot of photographers when I say that the use of Artcare Alpharag is non-negotiable and that Bainbridge board (excellent though it may be) will be unacceptable.

If he'll use Artcare board I'd be very interested in this service. Please keep us posted.

Yes it is Michael Smith and yes, you are correct in the slightly larger size as indicated. It will not affect the price by increasing the dimensions slightly.

If Superior Archival controls the ability to acquire Artcare Alpharag and as a result, this board is unavailable then a substitute may be in order. I have been waiting on some news about Superior Archival for some time and it appears to be a business that they are not interested in either selling, assigning or maintaining some form of practical continuity with the consuming public.

Has anyone been able to acquire Artcare Alpharag mat board? Where did you get it? We could get a new price with this specific board if it is in fact available.

Thanks

Michael Kadillak · Jul 14, 2006

RalphLambrecht said:
Why do you use a thinner board for the mat? Why not use both of them at 4-ply?

You could use 4 ply for the mount board without question, but one you can save money on the base material in costs and in the cost to ship this product to you to use. By using a thinner material for the mount board and carrying around prints to shows or wherever means that you can carry twice as many mounted on 2 ply as with 4 ply. Along these lines I see people also use 2 ply over mats for transporting prints that are swapped out for 4 ply over mats when they are framed for exhibition.

Whatever works for you works!

naturephoto1 · Jul 14, 2006

Michael,

The photos will generally not sit as well with the 2 ply backing board.

Rich

Peter De Smidt · Jul 14, 2006

Why not something like Alpharag ArtCare Foamboard for the mounting board? Won't that stay flatter, and provide good protection, for the long term?

When I started out, I used 2-ply museum board for the mount board. I prefer something thicker.

Michael Kadillak · Jul 14, 2006

naturephoto1 said:
Michael,

The photos will generally not sit as well with the 2 ply backing board.

Rich

Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee mount onto 2 ply museum board and that seems to work fine for them. When one uses a larger size 4 ply over mat (13"x15" for an 8x10 print) it tends to normalize the need for a 4 ply mount board.

Cheers!

Eric Jones · Jul 14, 2006

If you are on the West Coast you may want to look into a company called Valley Moulding and Frame. Their site is www.valleymoulding.com - I did not price anything out but they are very friendly, offer good service, have computerized cutters and carry Alpharag ArtCare Non-Buffered matte board. Usual disclaimer: no affiliation, blah, blah, blah....

naturephoto1 · Jul 14, 2006

Peter,

From what I know and have had confirmed by a friend that is a custom framer, it is not recommended to dry mount photos. Specifically, it is frowned upon to mount photos through any means, archival, dry mount etc. on any regular, acid free, rag foam core, or gator foam or board.

Rich

RalphLambrecht · Jul 14, 2006

Dry-mounting has some disadvantages, but to me, the advantages are far to great to mount any other way. If you want your prints truely flat and not covered by the overmat, dry-mounting is the best archival method. AA left his prints unmounted up to the point of sale, when they got dry-mounted.

RalphLambrecht · Jul 14, 2006

Me too, that's why I use 4-ply for everything. I haven't found any archival foam board yet.

Harrigan · Jul 14, 2006

What I use is crescent 4 ply museum rag and I (gasp) dry mount using seal archival dry mount tissue. You can't beat a dry mounted image for the super flat clean look. Floating prints looks sloppy in my opinion because most photo paper will buckle with humidity changes etc. On the matter of mat board any museum rag is fine alphamat, bainbridege, crescent whatever the difference is minimal. I did all the mounting at the lab I worked for years and I've tried most of the materials. The reason I use crescent 1610 white 4 ply rag is you can get it most places that have a wholesale frame dealer.

Donald Miller · Jul 14, 2006

When I first looked at these prices, I was impressed but when I considered that one of the boards was 2 ply it wasn't quite as impressive. Still not a bad price.

I use 4 ply for everything. I don't like the way a 16X20 print looks after awhile with even 4 ply board. In that size I back the 4 ply board with acid free foam core as a backing board to the 4 ply mount. I mount my 24X30cm prints on 16X20 board and it makes for a very nice presentation. I mount 12X16 and 11X14 prints on 20X24 board.

I drymount everything. I agree that hinged prints look sloppy to me. However others should do what flips their skirt.

I have used Cresent and Bainbridge for years. I have never had a problem with an image degrading over the past almost 25 years so long as I used acid free buffered board.

Michael Kadillak · Jul 14, 2006

Donald Miller said:
When I first looked at these prices, I was impressed but when I considered that one of the boards was 2 ply it wasn't quite as impressive. Still not a bad price.

Just for comparison and since there is some discussion about the subject, here are the prices for 4 ply mount board and 4 ply over mat

13x15" for 8x10 $3.26/set

13x25" for 8x20 $5.92/set

16x20" for 11x14 $4.60/set

Shipping costs are not included in the above prices or for that matter, the original prices above. I was plesed to hear that other quality mat boards perform equally well. Thanks for that information.

naturephoto1 · Jul 14, 2006

Since I am a color photographer, printing on Fuji Crystal Archive Photo Paper, I use a non-buffered Acid Free Board due to the concerns of the affect of the buffered board Windows along the edge of the photo over the lifetime.

I have been using Rising 4 Ply Photo Mount non-buffered boards for many many years. I double mat all of my images except in the smallest sizes. The other major makers Bainbridge, Crescent and a few others also make non-buffered boards.

I use a T hinge method of mounting the photos in the larger sizes (larger than or equal to 11"x14") and archival corners in the smaller sizes. Though they may not be as flat or be as neat in appearance, these are the methods preferred by galleries and museums. The image can be removed and remounted and the photo is not put under undo stress as the mat boards swell and contract due to changes in heat and humidity. I also try to maintain the humidity of the photos, mat boards, frames, etc. at between 40-45% until they are prepared so they are not as affected later due to heat and humidity changes. Additionally, there is no guarantee that the dry mounting adhesives will hold without bubbling and there is still question as to whether the adhesives are truly acid free. My Fuji Crystal Archive Photos are printed as a glossy surface and they can not be dry mounted by a hot/warm mount without concern of an orange peel affect on the photo surface. Dry mounting of this paper can only be recommended through a cold or vacuum mount method.

When framing I also use a spacer behind the matted/mounted photo of acid free foam core. This offers additional protection and adds a bit of rigidity to the work in the custom made wooden frames (or when requested in metal).

Rich

DKT · Jul 14, 2006

there is an "archival" foam board. it's a tough material to mount with actually because it's soft, and it can ding up pretty easily, plus it's hard to get a real clean cut on it as well, as far as a substrate goes, if you're used to a more hard coated board, like gatorboard. It's used primarily as a backing board.

Foamcore & gatorboard offgasses formaldehyde. the conservators where I work won't let us use it inside of cases with artifacts. We use the archival foamboard instead, and personally I prefer just regular gatorboard over that, because it's easier to work with & gives a cleaner product, but anyways--regular gatorboard, there's a workaround, that involves sealing the edges to prevent the offgassing. The squishy archival foamcore is just not that great really to mount on, except maybe in a vaccum press, but my experience with it has been that I'd rather be using something else.

fwiw--the archival bit about drymounting has to do with being irreversible (most of the time). to a conservator, permanently mounting something is bad news. there's an issue about the stresses to the print from the substrate contracting & expanding with the changes in temp and humidity over the long haul, and if they should ever have to do any actual conservation to the photo, having it mounted, again, would be problematic. in the outside world, I'm not so sure how important that really is. I'm not trying to cop a do as I say/not as I do mentality, but that's the way "they" see it....for my own, personal stuff, I have all sorts of bad habits.

my opinions only of course.

btw--Conservation Resources Int'l might be a place to try -- the microchamber stuff.

c6h6o3 · Jul 14, 2006

Michael Kadillak said:
Has anyone been able to acquire Artcare Alpharag mat board? Where did you get it?

Joe Freeman mentioned to me a few weeks ago that he's been getting it from a framing supply shop near him. He lives in Clayton, NJ, just east (one NJTP exit) of the Delaware Memorial Bridge. I'll contact him and inquire about this.

Those of us who have depended upon Superior Archival Materials in the past need to find a substitute. That's what this thread is about. Can we leave it at that?

The relative merits of dry mounting versus other methods of presentation have been debated endlessly on this and other forums. I will always drymount my prints and don't care who doesn't like it or what museums or collections will refuse to buy them because of that fact. Can we please have that discussion in some other thread?

Peter De Smidt · Jul 14, 2006

The foam board I was asking about was the Bainbridge kind with the microchambers that trap pollutents. I didn't mention anything about what type of mounting, although this would work better with hinge mounting, as I'm not sure that the core of foam core likes to be heated, even this fancy kind.

Regarding dry-mounting: whereas hinge mounting might look ok with RC prints, which includes regular color prints, I dislike the wavy look that it gives with FB paper. Hence I dry-mount to 4 ply museum board. In effect, the print plus mount board becomes the work of art. To complain about this not being reversible would be like complaining that one can't remove the gelatin on the print without destroying it.

Donald Miller · Jul 14, 2006

Michael Kadillak said:
Just for comparison and since there is some discussion about the subject, here are the prices for 4 ply mount board and 4 ply over mat

13x15" for 8x10 $3.26/set

13x25" for 8x20 $5.92/set

16x20" for 11x14 $4.60/set

Shipping costs are not included in the above prices or for that matter, the original prices above. I was plesed to hear that other quality mat boards perform equally well. Thanks for that information.

Michael,

To give you a comparison, I paid $10.17 per sheet for 22 sheets Cresent rag board in full sheets 32X40 here in Phoenix. So when you factor that you would get 2 sets (16X20 mount and overmat) of 4 ply from a full sheet your quote is a very good price. Considering that you don't have to cut it. If I could buy it cut for that price locally, I would jump on it.

Freight is going to cost because mat board is heavy. Light Impressions quoted over a $100 shipping for a case of full sheets shipped from LA to Phoenix.

When I lived in Dillon in the mid 80's there was a local frame wholesaler there in Denver named Rocky Mountain Molding. They had all sorts of frames, frame molding and a full line of mat boards. I don't know if they are still in business...but someone in Denver is wholesaling these materials I would think.

Good luck...

Donald Miller · Jul 14, 2006

Peter De Smidt said:
The foam board I was asking about was the Bainbridge kind with the microchambers that trap pollutents. I didn't mention anything about what type of mounting, although this would work better with hinge mounting, as I'm not sure that the core of foam core likes to be heated, even this fancy kind.

Regarding dry-mounting: whereas hinge mounting might look ok with RC prints, which includes regular color prints, I dislike the wavy look that it gives with FB paper. Hence I dry-mount to 4 ply museum board. In effect, the print plus mount board becomes the work of art. To complain about this not being reversible would be like complaining that one can't remove the gelatin on the print without destroying it.

For the information of those who may be interested, I have drymounted on foamcore before. I used colormount (200 degrees). It worked really well with Cibachrome. My press has a masonite board that I pull for foam core and only use when I mount directly to the 4 ply board. I don't know about the archival foam core since I haven't dry mounted on that.

jmedlock · Jul 14, 2006

Michael Kadillak said:
Has anyone been able to acquire Artcare Alpharag mat board? Where did you get it? We could get a new price with this specific board if it is in fact available.

Take a look at www.americanframe.com -- they carry Artcare Alpharag. I've not purchased from them before, so I don't know if their $$ are reasonable or not.

According to their website, they also custom cut mats/frames.

Jim Jones · Jul 14, 2006

$3.50 for a 16x20 with 11x14 window sounds like a bargain. I use Light Impressions rag board and cut my own mats. It costs me more with 4 ply as a mounting board, using precut 16x20 board.

If I had to pander to galleries I might have to rethink dry-mounting. When selling directly to customers, dry-mounting provides good appearance and durability.

Archival 3/16 foam board instead of those darn spring clips helps keep everything flat in standard metal frames.

Peter De Smidt · Jul 15, 2006

Jim Jones said:
Archival 3/16 foam board instead of those darn spring clips helps keep everything flat in standard metal frames.

My local frame shop tells me to never use the clips. The problem, they claim, is that the clips press the edges tightly, and this can cause problems when the changes in humidty cause the print to swell and shrink. The frame shop advises to size the frames and inserts such that mats and artwork are just slightly loose in the frame and leave the clips out. I don't know if this is a real problem or not, but I'm not a fan of the clips, as they are a pain to remove if you ever have to dissassemble the frame.

naturephoto1 · Jul 15, 2006

Peter,

When I used to use the metal frames (and when requested) I did/do not use the metal spring clips. They do cause a problem including possibly shattering the glass. I double mat my photos and as a result use 1/8" acid free foam core (instead of the 3/16" used by Jim with these frames (I use 3/16" acid free foam core with the wooden frames). I do however use a burnishing bone to flatten the portion of the foam core to go into the metal frame channels to give a little more air space in the frame.

Rich

Matt Board and Cutting Services

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