Mat opening floats above print - how do I get it to be flush?

tkamiya · Nov 6, 2014

I wonder if there is a solution to this.

For the first time, I matted and framed a fairly large photograph. Size of the image is 16 x 30. Matting is 4" all the way around and the opening is bevel cut. The photograph is T hinged to a foam core board at 3 points at top of the print. Glazing is standard thickness acrylic. This is a very standard way of assembling framing.

Here's the problem.

As I look along the opening of the mat, I see some gap between the print and the mat along top edge of the opening. Other way to say that is, on top side of the image, mat opening is not flush against the print. I see some small amount of waviness on the print near the area as well. I disassembled this and closely examined the print. Indeed, print is slightly wavy around this area.

I thought matting pressed against the print and pressure from glazing would flatten this? It is impossible to have a print of this size completely flat.

Are there any trick that I am not aware of? Is using a museum board and dry mounting the photograph to it, then T hinge that to the backing board a way to solve this? As this is not at all archival (it's a color print), I'm thinking of using contact adhesive. My heat press is not large enough for this size print. I have heard, there is a type of pressure sensitive adhesive sheet where I can cut it to size, and place it on top of backing, then place the print. Adjust it and PRESS. Only when pressure is applied, adhesive takes hold. (anyone know of this product??)

I usually deal with prints smaller than 18 inches across and never had this issue.

Help!

Light Guru · Nov 6, 2014

For large prints I like to have them mounted on foam core or some other stiff material.

nsurit · Nov 7, 2014

Would a thicker foam core or 8 ply mat help?There is an adhesive product made which might help that you apply uner the mat. Did you flattten the print before you started?

tkamiya · Nov 7, 2014

I am not sure thicker mat or foam core will help as neither of those are deformed.... Do you know the name of the adhesive product?

It's a machine color print, so it was already flat (as flat as these usually come). I can stick it in my heat press, I guess, also but I didn't. I am not sure if I can flatten it 100% because of its size.

Thomas Bertilsson · Nov 7, 2014

tkamiya said:
I am not sure thicker mat or foam core will help as neither of those are deformed.... Do you know the name of the adhesive product?

It's a machine color print, so it was already flat (as flat as these usually come). I can stick it in my heat press, I guess, also but I didn't. I am not sure if I can flatten it 100% because of its size.

Your problem kind of comes with the territory of large prints. No paper is 100% flat, and the bigger the sheet, the bigger the problem.

The way it's framed may help, and the thickness of the board you mount the print to, as well as the ply of the window mat will have an impact. The frames I use tension the mount board against the glass of the frame. With big prints I use an extra sheet of rag or archival foam core behind the mount board to make it stiffer, so that the tension of the springs that hold it in place has a stronger effect.

That said, unless dry mounted, I have never really seen a huge print that lays perfectly flat. With time it may change, based on humidity in the air, and so on.

eddie · Nov 7, 2014

tkamiya said:
As I look along the opening of the mat, I see some gap between the print and the mat along top edge of the opening. Other way to say that is, on top side of the image, mat opening is not flush against the print. I see some small amount of waviness on the print near the area as well. I disassembled this and closely examined the print. Indeed, print is slightly wavy around this area.

The mat problem can occur when it's cut just larger than the frame opening. If your frame groove is 30 inches, it's possible that the mat is 30 1/16 inches (or 30 1/32). This will cause it to bow a bit. You might want to trim the side down a 16th of an inch or so.

tkamiya · Nov 7, 2014

Eddie,

Thank you. No, inside stuff are smaller than the outside. I checked that.

Thomas,

Do you know of any convenient material to mount this to a substrate (museum board?) My dry mount press is too small for this task.

Thomas Bertilsson · Nov 7, 2014

tkamiya said:
Eddie,

Thank you. No, inside stuff are smaller than the outside. I checked that.

Thomas,

Do you know of any convenient material to mount this to a substrate (museum board?) My dry mount press is too small for this task.

I use the photo corners. They are plastic triangle shaped little 'pockets' with room for the corners of your print to be held in place. They adhere to the mount board like sticky tape, and at least keep the corners of the print firmly flat. They are archival and inexpensive too.

I sometimes get some floating around the window of the mat, but I try not to let it bother me. I use mostly fiber prints, though, which are far more difficult than the RC paper I suspect you have.

nsurit · Nov 7, 2014

tkamiya said:
I am not sure thicker mat or foam core will help as neither of those are deformed.... Do you know the name of the adhesive product?

http://www.amazon.com/Tombow-Mono-Adhesive-Permanent-Bond/dp/B00008IOXC They also make a removable sticky tape.

Depending on the size of your dry mount press, you should be able to flatten it in pieces. Were I doing it, I'd make sure there was a iece of archival mat board betweeen the print and the top surface of the press.

Jim Jones · Nov 7, 2014

When the photo paper and the mounting board expand and shrink at different rates with changes in humidity, such waviness naturally occurs. It can be minimized by attaching the print to the mounting board at two fairly closely spaced points. This attaching must be done well, as there may be more strain on the attachment than with widely spaced attachment points. As Thomas Bertilsson says, photo corners may be better. Like nsurit, I've mounted 16x20 prints in a 11x14 dry mount press. It takes time and must be carefully done to prevent the edge of the platen from embossing the image. That piece of mat board between the print and the platen helps, but sometimes doesn't completely eliminate, the problem.

Thomas Bertilsson · Nov 7, 2014

Jim Jones said:
When the photo paper and the mounting board expand and shrink at different rates with changes in humidity, such waviness naturally occurs. It can be minimized by attaching the print to the mounting board at two fairly closely spaced points. This attaching must be done well, as there may be more strain on the attachment than with widely spaced attachment points. As Thomas Bertilsson says, photo corners may be better. Like nsurit, I've mounted 16x20 prints in a 11x14 dry mount press. It takes time and must be carefully done to prevent the edge of the platen from embossing the image. That piece of mat board between the print and the platen helps, but sometimes doesn't completely eliminate, the problem.

The nice thing about the photo corners is that the print is allowed to 'float' a little bit, meaning that when the paper contracts and expands, the photo corner allows some movement without putting undue stress on the paper.

It's like a bridge support, where steel plates on the bridge and the foundation supports join with a round steel bar in the middle, allowing the bridge to move as it contracts and expands with heat and cold.

tkamiya · Nov 7, 2014

I wonder if I can place an archival double stick adhesive right above the print and attach mount board and the mat board right above top edge of the print?

Vaughn · Nov 7, 2014

This might seem excessive, but a friend who has large prints uses two pieces of plex. One for the front, and one for behind the mounted print (instead of foamcore). Seems to do a great job on the print I have of his (about 16"x40", I believe).

If one did this all the time, I suppose as a front piece of plex got scratched, it could be moved to the back -- nice use of scratched plex!

Jon Shiu · Nov 7, 2014

tkamiya said:
I wonder if I can place an archival double stick adhesive right above the print and attach mount board and the mat board right above top edge of the print?

In some frame shops, they tape the print right to the back of the window mat. Also, you can put dots of white glue on the mat board around the photo and then weight it down until it dries.

Jon

tkamiya · Nov 7, 2014

Here's what I did and what happened.

I have a can of spray on low tack adhesive. I put masking tapes around 1/4" of space around the opening. Then sprayed a thin coat. Then stuck the whole thing onto a foam-core board with photograph hinge mounted.

The buckling of the window opening is ALMOST gone. There's some but not enough to worry about.

NOW, I'm finding an area near that edge ON THE PHOTOGRAPH is not totally flat. It looks like it was handled roughly before the print was delivered to me. There are indication it was bent and creased somewhat.

In magnitude of ugliness, if former state was 10, it's like 3. So it's livable, as long as it doesn't get worse.

I am now researching for a good method to mount a large photograph to a mount board without using dry-mount method. 3M makes re-positionable sheet for this purpose. (not archival but it doesn't matter for this project)

This has been a learning process. The largest I've dealt with before was 12x18. This is 16x30. Whole different issues are cropping up! This piece may turn into a "learning experience."

fdi · Nov 8, 2014

tkamiya said:
Here's what I did and what happened.
I have a can of spray on low tack adhesive. I put masking tapes around 1/4" of space around the opening. Then sprayed a thin coat. Then stuck the whole thing onto a foam-core board with photograph hinge mounted.

Are you saying that you put the adhesive on the mat and glued it to the foam-core right above the picture? If so that is not something I would recommend. Everything contracts and expands differently with temp changes. For hinge mounting you only want the print attached the foam or to the mat in a couple places. You only want the mat attached to the foam on one edge so everything is as free to move as possible.

If you are not going to leave the print completely free to expand and contract then you need the entire print permanently fixed to the foamboard via something such as dry mounting. There are two things you have to be careful about with larger prints. One is that you need to make sure you get all of the air out from between the print and the mounting board. The second is that the adhesive needs to be applied to 100% of the area and activated across 100% of the area. That is why dry mounting in a press works well. The adhesive is in a sheet so it can cover 100% of the area perfectly evenly, the heat of the press fully activates it, and the pressure of the press gets rid of all the air.

tkamiya · Nov 8, 2014

Yes, that's what I did.

And that didn't work well based on what I see now (next day). Buckling got worse and mat board is floating exactly the same way. I'm going to mount the photograph to a mount board somehow. Either dry mounting or some kind of adhesive like we have discussed offline.

This IS going to be a learning experience!

fdi · Nov 8, 2014

tkamiya said:
Yes, that's what I did.

And that didn't work well based on what I see now (next day). Buckling got worse and mat board is floating exactly the same way. I'm going to mount the photograph to a mount board somehow. Either dry mounting or some kind of adhesive like we have discussed offline.

This IS going to be a learning experience!

Are you making the prints yourself or purchasing them? If you are buying the frame from us, or at least the foamcore we could dry mount it for you. It is something we have done a little bit for local customers and plan to do more in the future. If you are interested, I can quote you offline.

tkamiya · Nov 8, 2014

Mark,

This is a commercially printed print THIS TIME, but it won't always be so. From here, I'll send you an email and discuss. Thank you.

MartinP · Nov 9, 2014

Self-adhesive foamcore board is easily available in shops selling mounting materials. If you aren't bothered by mega-archival properties then you could try mounting the print to a piece of that foamcore product, after making sure that the foamcore itself is flat (I've seen cheap brands that are concave on the non-adhesive side). The actual mounting is best done with a roller, whether via machine or using a piece of plumbing pipe, to keep the print under control and off the adhesive surface except for the few centimetres you are fixing at any moment.

However, it is a bit unclear whether your T-mounting is the problem - if too far apart, or too many, the print could still change size between the mounting points and cause wrinkles. As mentioned by a previous poster the matt could also be jammed in the frame, causing unevenness. It is further possible that the backing board (behind the foamcore you used) is not rigid, or flat, so that the complete sandwich is not held together in the frame. The same can occur if the plastic "glazing" (5mm thick, not the flexible 2mm or 3mm type) is not flat or rigid -- glass is by far the best material here and can be much thinner than the necessary thickness of plastic, of course.

DREW WILEY · Nov 14, 2014

You neglected to state all the variable - the exact kind of print paper, mounting board, and overmat. Specifics are important. You get a differential expansion/contraction coefficient with changes in humidity and sometimes even lighting and ambient temperature. There are some
serious tricks to keeping a big print flat, and the average art store isn't going to know much about this. Just depends how much you want to
spend and if you're willing to undergo a fairly stiff learning curve. Sometimes with the big ones, it's better to consign the framing to someone
properly experienced and equipped.

tkamiya · Nov 29, 2014

SUCCESS!

Tried it again with new materials. I dry mounted the image onto a 2 ply mount board. Using over-sized mat boards and release paper, I did it in sections. At this point, it was mounted but the board warped during cooling in sections. Once the image was mounted, I reduced the heat and heated the sections again in rapid successions. Then quickly to a "plywood press".... (just two sheets of thick plywood to press it down again). Let it cool for 60 minutes. It came out completely flat.

This time, I used a float mount scheme. Now the mat board opening is flush and flat against the mount board.

SUCCESS!

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 1, 2014

Dry or wet mounting is best to insure print flatness, then you won't run into the problem of the overmat not sitting flush against the print.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 2, 2014

tkamiya said:
I wonder if there is a solution to this.

For the first time, I matted and framed a fairly large photograph. Size of the image is 16 x 30. Matting is 4" all the way around and the opening is bevel cut. The photograph is T hinged to a foam core board at 3 points at top of the print. Glazing is standard thickness acrylic. This is a very standard way of assembling framing.

Here's the problem.

As I look along the opening of the mat, I see some gap between the print and the mat along top edge of the opening. Other way to say that is, on top side of the image, mat opening is not flush against the print. I see some small amount of waviness on the print near the area as well. I disassembled this and closely examined the print. Indeed, print is slightly wavy around this area.

I thought matting pressed against the print and pressure from glazing would flatten this? It is impossible to have a print of this size completely flat.

Are there any trick that I am not aware of? Is using a museum board and dry mounting the photograph to it, then T hinge that to the backing board a way to solve this? As this is not at all archival (it's a color print), I'm thinking of using contact adhesive. My heat press is not large enough for this size print. I have heard, there is a type of pressure sensitive adhesive sheet where I can cut it to size, and place it on top of backing, then place the print. Adjust it and PRESS. Only when pressure is applied, adhesive takes hold. (anyone know of this product??)

I usually deal with prints smaller than 18 inches across and never had this issue.

Help!

this should bedone by your frame design.With Nielsen frames, a couple of spring-loaded clamps push the mat board against the inside of the frameand keep the windowmat flush.with Halbe frames one relies on the foam backing board to do the same.both methods work wellFoe Ehibition quality presentations I can recommend both but prefer Halbe dueto the quick print changes that can be made.

tkamiya · Jan 27, 2015

Hi Ralph,

Yes, these are Nielsen frames with spring loaded clamps. What appears to be happening is that the clamping force at the edge are just fine but there are enough give in the "system" that where the mat opening meets the print, there isn't enough clamping force. So if there are any inconsistencies in flatness of the print or the mounting, it won't lay flat. I was able to resolve this by carefully flattening and cooling the print/mountboard combination.

Mat opening floats above print - how do I get it to be flush?

tkamiya

Light Guru

nsurit

tkamiya

Thomas Bertilsson

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Mat opening floats above print - how do I get it to be flush?

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