MASSIVE SUDDEN Ilford price jump in Japan

nevsky187 · Sep 2, 2013

A bit of shock reverberating through the black-and-white film community here in Japan as the cost of bulk 100 ft. rolls of Ilford films have DOUBLED across the board (from around $45 US for a bulk roll of HP5+ up to like $90)!!! Has anyone noticed or heard anything consummate with this in their area??? WHAT GIVES ILFORD?

pdeeh · Sep 2, 2013

I think you should be grateful they held their prices so low for so long.
In the UK, a 30m bulk roll of HP5+ is well over 90USD before shipping ... I expect they were losing money hand over fist in Japan at 45USD

Moopheus · Sep 2, 2013

Currency fluctuations would explain some of the difference--though according to that chart it looks like bulk rolls got a much bigger increase percentage-wise than single rolls or even sheets. So there has to be some other factor affecting that format specifically.

pentaxuser · Sep 2, 2013

Just over £28 for a 100ft roll. I might be wrong but I believe this was the price in the U.K. when Prime Minister Lloyd George declared the First World War Armistice . OK a slight exaggeration, it was probably closer to 1920 than 1918

How on earth did it remain at that price in Japan until a few days ago? If $45USD represented a profit for Ilford then when was this stuffed shipped out?

pentaxuser

erikg · Sep 2, 2013

54.90 at Adorama, NYC now.

pentaxuser · Sep 2, 2013

erikg said:
54.90 at Adorama, NYC now.

Here we go again. Prices range in the U.K. from $87 to $110 Most are in the $90 -$95 range. The best I can find is in fact Harman Express itself which charges only $3 less than the OP will be paying for stuff that has to be transported 1000s of miles and into a market where I'd imagine Harman film volumes to be low even in comparison to the U.K. market so volume sales in Japan can't explain it

So, OP, I think you can take a lot of comfort out of this despite the price rise. What we in the U.K. have to take out of this I will leave to each U.K APUGer who buys HP5+ bulk rolls.

I really ought to stop reading any post which deals with prices in various markets. It only depresses me

pentaxuser

newtorf · Sep 2, 2013

and it is free shipping to US 48 states, IIRC.

erikg said:
54.90 at Adorama, NYC now.

erikg · Sep 2, 2013

pentaxuser said:
Here we go again. Prices range in the U.K. from $87 to $110 Most are in the $90 -$95 range. The best I can find is in fact Harman Express itself which charges only $3 less than the OP will be paying for stuff that has to be transported 1000s of miles and into a market where I'd imagine Harman film volumes to be low even in comparison to the U.K. market so volume sales in Japan can't explain it

So, OP, I think you can take a lot of comfort out of this despite the price rise. What we in the U.K. have to take out of this I will leave to each U.K APUGer who buys HP5+ bulk rolls.

I really ought to stop reading any post which deals with prices in various markets. It only depresses me

pentaxuser

I don't mean to gloat, I hope it didn't seem that way, I don't know what controls the range of pricing, obviously the world isn't flat no matter what's said.

nevsky187 · Sep 2, 2013

Yeah, Kodak recently jacked up the price of bulk rolls by like 50% too; I suspect some sort of collusion with Ilford over this as both hikes happened within weeks of each other and now bulk rolls of both companies' products are comparably priced. Funny how Kodak's film division is now run by a British trustee on behalf of Kodak's British employee retirement fund. I smell a rat.

On top of this, this hike came down with absolutely no advance warning, which even the notoriously secretive Fujifilm is capable of giving. We had one day on this. Good way to lose whatever loyal customers you do have in one of the few strong film cultures left on earth.

OzJohn · Sep 2, 2013

nevsky187 said:
Yeah, Kodak recently jacked up the price of bulk rolls by like 50% too; I suspect some sort of collusion with Ilford over this as both hikes happened within weeks of each other and now bulk rolls of both companies' products are comparably priced. Funny how Kodak's film division is now run by a British trustee on behalf of Kodak's British employee retirement fund. I smell a rat.

On top of this, this hike came down with absolutely no advance warning, which even the notoriously secretive Fujifilm is capable of giving. We had one day on this. Good way to lose whatever loyal customers you do have in one of the few strong film cultures left on earth.

I think any alleged conspiracy between Harman and Kodak is fanciful - dare I say a theory. There are many strongholds of film users throughout the world and most of them except perhaps the USA feel ripped by Ilford pricing. There may well be British members here on APUG who can look out their window and see the factory yet have to pay more than the products are sold for over the counter in US camera shops. How do you reckon they feel? OzJohn

mooseontheloose · Sep 2, 2013

I'm glad I stick mostly to 120 -- the price increases there are not so bad.

IloveTLRs · Sep 3, 2013

I see that's a Yodobashi flyer - they were always cheap with film, especially Ilford. I used to order from them all the time: free shipping and on my doorstep within 24 hours. Don't know how they made a profit, but mine wasn't to ask.

Anyway, look at the bright side: they're not discontinuing anything. I'd rather pay more money than have to look for an alternative.

pentaxuser · Sep 3, 2013

erikg said:
I don't mean to gloat, I hope it didn't seem that way, I don't know what controls the range of pricing, obviously the world isn't flat no matter what's said.

No problem. You are not responsible for the massive price difference. It may make no difference but the more we keep each other informed of each other's market prices then the more those price differences are visible to all users.

Clearly we are not all treated equally

pentaxuser

Mark_S · Sep 4, 2013

I just recently bought some sheet film - 4x5 HP5+ in the 100 sheet box, here in the US, from B&H. The price did seem quite a bit higher than my mental image of what the film costs (over $1.20 per sheet), I am not sure if there has been a recent price increase, or if I just haven't been paying attention over the past few years. Either way, I do not begrudge Ilford charging a fair price for their film so long as it supports a business model which will allow them to continue offering the film for as long as I want to shoot it.

FWIW, I also bought some Velvia - that costs $3.50 per sheet, and the chemicals to process it cost me another $2.00 per sheet so it is over $5.00 each time I trip the shutter to get a poorly exposed transparancy . Both the chemicals and the film seemed to be a lot less expensive just a few years ago.

clayne · Sep 4, 2013

Mark_S said:
I just recently bought some sheet film - 4x5 HP5+ in the 100 sheet box, here in the US, from B&H. The price did seem quite a bit higher than my mental image of what the film costs (over $1.20 per sheet), I am not sure if there has been a recent price increase, or if I just haven't been paying attention over the past few years. Either way, I do not begrudge Ilford charging a fair price for their film so long as it supports a business model which will allow them to continue offering the film for as long as I want to shoot it.

FWIW, I also bought some Velvia - that costs $3.50 per sheet, and the chemicals to process it cost me another $2.00 per sheet so it is over $5.00 each time I trip the shutter to get a poorly exposed transparancy . Both the chemicals and the film seemed to be a lot less expensive just a few years ago.

BTW: How are the chemicals costing you 2$/sheet? There's 4*4x5 per 8x10 =~ 1 135 roll. Tetenal E6 1L costs 65$ (12-16 rolls), 5L costs 100$ (60-80 rolls). the 1L kit should do it for about 1$/sheet. The 5L kit should do it for ~0.30$/sheet.

mesantacruz · Sep 4, 2013

sorry to be such a newb on the issue, it seems the price hike has been of about 3 dollars since last i bought the bulk roll about 1 month ago (more or less).

my question is

Is it to be expected that a similar price hike will happen here in the U.S.?

i'm thinking of buying a couple of rolls and saving them if that's the case.

msbarnes · Sep 4, 2013

mesantacruz said:
sorry to be such a newb on the issue, it seems the price hike has been of about 3 dollars since last i bought the bulk roll about 1 month ago (more or less).

my question is

Is it to be expected that a similar price hike will happen here in the U.S.?

i'm thinking of buying a couple of rolls and saving them if that's the case.

Not sure. I've been into [film] photography for about 2 years and the prices just keep going up. I buy when I can and always have film in stock.

Simon R Galley · Sep 5, 2013

Dear All,

Pricing around the world on all products not just film varies enormously : If you want a spectacular example look at what any car costs in Europe and then look at the USA.

This is due to :

1) Exchange rates
2) Import Duties
3) Taxes ( Local and national )
4) Margins charged by distributors and re-sellers
5) Freight ( Refrigerated for 8 months of the year )
6) Stock at varying prices in the supply chain

HARMAN technology strives to offer best value for money for quality products around the world, we clearly understand ( and value ) that consumers have a choice.

HARMAN technology Limited have no plans whatsoever at this time to increase prices ex.factory on any product, but obviously reserve the right to do so.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

pdeeh · Sep 5, 2013

Understood Simon.

Nevertheless, it can feel hard to swallow that in the UK it is possible to buy Ilford products from the US and - having paid shipping, import duty and VAT - still find it cheaper than buying from a UK retailer (including Harman Express)

Mark_S · Sep 5, 2013

clayne said:
BTW: How are the chemicals costing you 2$/sheet? There's 4*4x5 per 8x10 =~ 1 135 roll. Tetenal E6 1L costs 65$ (12-16 rolls), 5L costs 100$ (60-80 rolls). the 1L kit should do it for about 1$/sheet. The 5L kit should do it for ~0.30$/sheet.

I use the Jobo 2509 reel in a tank - the reel holds 6 sheets, and the tank takes 270ml, which means that I get three batches = 18 sheets from a 1L kit, so for the 1L kit, using the chemicals one-shot, I get 18 sheets for $65 = $3.61 per sheet. If I use the 5L kit, then I get 18 tank fulls = 108 sheets, so it does bring the cost down to ~$1 per sheet. There is also a bit of savings if I process 12 sheets at a time in the bigger Jobo tank - I don't remember exactly how much of the chemical that takes, but it is less than 2X the amount for one reel. In the end, with the fact that I don't always manage to come back from a shooting trip with an even multiple of 6 sheets, I end up spending ~$2 per sheet for processing my E-6 sheet film. It is still less expensive than going to a lab, and I prefer the control that it gives me, so I'm not really complaining, just making an observation. Sure the cost of the Ilford materials has gone up, but it is still cheap compared to color - HP5 is costing me about $1 per sheet, and Ilfotec HC is almost free, so even with the price increases from Ilford, it is a good bargain, and I am more confident that I will be continuing to shoot HP5 into my dotage than Velvia or Ektachrome.

pentaxuser · Sep 5, 2013

Having looked at points 1-6 made by Simon Galley which I am not denying are part of any products costs, I cannot reconcile this with the correct statement made by pdeeh that it is possible to buy from the U.S. cheaper than from the U.K. certainly for some products even after taking all charges into account.

Simon gives an interesting analogy with car prices between the U.S. and Europe and it was this mention of car prices that sparked my memory about the massive car price differences in the late 80s between some European markets and the U.K.

When questioned about this car manufacturers cited a list of cost similar to Simon's and it appeared that the differences were fully justified until someone decided to try importing cars from the cheaper markets and did so successfully and more cheaply. Re-importing then became a minor industry in itself and any customer could order a car this way and even after paying the middleman's fees still bought more cheaply.

At that point car manufacturers who had said they couldn't reduce prices then did so - at least to the point where it wasn't worth the trouble and hassle to import.

I fear we are charged what the market will bear and unless and until I see a convincing argument to the contrary, this will continue to be my belief

pentaxuser

CatLABS · Sep 5, 2013

pentaxuser said:
When questioned about this car manufacturers cited a list of cost similar to Simon's and it appeared that the differences were fully justified until someone decided to try importing cars from the cheaper markets and did so successfully and more cheaply. Re-importing then became a minor industry in itself and any customer could order a car this way and even after paying the middleman's fees still bought more cheaply.
pentaxuser

There is an old top gear bit where jeremy clarckson goes to miami to check out total cost of importing a car to the UK and shows the huge savings (mid 80's), however - today most cars, for most large markets are made locally to each market, so all that talk about shipping and duties is not relevant. I guess in a world where Kodak had various plants around the world this also could have had an impact...

I remember that about 10 years ago, an ilford importer in a country to remain unnamed, due to bad management had failed to adjust his prices to new list prices from ilford, over a very very long period of time. When the import of ilford went into new hands there was a 100% or more spike in pricing. This was mostly due to the new importer having to restock on all new material, with current prices, where all stock up until then was either bought at lower price, or just sold at a loss or very small margin. To the end customer this hurt real bad, and i think ilford have no control over this type of situation, which sounds very similar to what the OP is talking about and what the price change in Japan reflects.

clayne · Sep 5, 2013

Mark_S said:
I use the Jobo 2509 reel in a tank - the reel holds 6 sheets, and the tank takes 270ml, which means that I get three batches = 18 sheets from a 1L kit, so for the 1L kit, using the chemicals one-shot, I get 18 sheets for $65 = $3.61 per sheet. If I use the 5L kit, then I get 18 tank fulls = 108 sheets, so it does bring the cost down to ~$1 per sheet.

Are you not recycling any of the chemicals back into the main storage tank? The tetenal 1L kit is suitable for recycling of chems up to a certain point. That's of course how the 1L kit is able to do 12-16 135 rolls. If I were you I'd really look at reusing the chems after dumping back into the tank for atleast twice the sheets you're doing now.

Mark_S · Sep 5, 2013

clayne said:
Are you not recycling any of the chemicals back into the main storage tank? The tetenal 1L kit is suitable for recycling of chems up to a certain point. That's of course how the 1L kit is able to do 12-16 135 rolls. If I were you I'd really look at reusing the chems after dumping back into the tank for atleast twice the sheets you're doing now.

I probably could use the chemicals more than one shot, but I know that I get reproducible results doing what I am doing, and I am willing to pay a little extra for that. By far the largest 'cost' for this hobby is my time, not the film or the chemicals. Most of what I shoot and process is B&W where the chemical cost is essentially 0. I made the comment about colour film to point out that even with the recent price increases, ilford B&W film is good value for money - especially when you factor in that they look like they have a plan which will allow them to continue supporting me with materials for years to come.

MASSIVE SUDDEN Ilford price jump in Japan

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