Maskless negative film in C41 to create slides

Photo Engineer · Dec 5, 2016

CD1 and CD2 are much more prone to cause dermatitis, and they also tend to "oil out" of solution and cause black tar. In addition, the older couplers formed dyes with far less stability than CD3, CD4 and CD6. At Kodak, all chemicals were classified according to structure. So, CD3 was a D109 class and CD6 was a D106 class and etc.

George, even though we have relatives by marriage, I know no Romanian. FYI they are from Fagrash.

PE

georgegrosu · Dec 5, 2016

Thank PE for information.
I was pleasantly surprised to see you here on APUG words in Romanian language.

Rudeofus, I think in terms of stability as the most important role is the kind of film.
Normal is to respect the process recommended by the manufacturer of the film.
Fact that use CD-1, CD 2 or CD-3 believe it has less importance on stability.

George

Photo Engineer · Dec 5, 2016

George, early color developers were more soluble in organic solvents (and skin fats) and thus oriented the dye differently than CD3, CD4 and CD6. This means a whole world of difference in terms of activity and stability. In addition, newer CDs have substituents in the 3 position (ie, 3 methyl) and this twists the dye formed and changes hue and adjusts dye stability.

This is a new world of CDs.

PE

georgegrosu · Dec 5, 2016

Thank PE for information.
My idea in Romanian language was that for each type of film use the process / substance developer recommended by the manufacturer.
Sorry for the confusion created.
From my experience at the National Film Archive I have noticed that the color positives have a higher percentage of degradation of dyes
than the color negative or internegative.
PE I have a question about the dyes formed in film.
Color trainers from the color positive films are identical to those used in the color negative films?

George

Photo Engineer · Dec 5, 2016

No, the imaging material in negative films differs due to the print step, but transparency films are designed to match the human eye. Print materials are designed more for the human eye.

PE

twelvetone12 · Dec 5, 2016

Does ECP film have an orange mask?

flavio81 · Dec 5, 2016

georgegrosu said:
Thank PE for information.
I was pleasantly surprised to see you here on APUG words in Romanian language.

Salut, bine ai venit George!!

I don't really speak Romanian; my interest in Romania started when a friend of mine told me she studied her career in Bucharest, she told me about the securitate and everything. (She liked the experience a lot). So i recalled that one of my favorite authors (Mircea Eliade) is Romanian, and that the genius that invented my favorite pill (Corneliu E. Giurgea inventor of Piracetam) is also from that country. So, i read A LOT about the Romanian revolution of 1989, one of my favorite subject and something that I always bring into a conversation whenever I fault my country for not being brave enough to face injustice.

Photo Engineer · Dec 5, 2016

twelvetone12 said:
Does ECP film have an orange mask?

No print material intended for human viewing has a mask, and therefore ECP does not.

PE

twelvetone12 · Dec 5, 2016

It is not c41, but OP could try reversing some print stock, just for fun. Time ago I was reading of some guy that cross processed it into e6, with bad results as expected (but with images), maybe as a leisure activity...

FilmCurlCom · Dec 5, 2016

Yes, that was one of my questions right at the start of this thread:
"I also wondered if I could use ECP film instead, so some Kodak Vision Color print film.
Would there be any alternative to actual ECP chemistry, so similar to using C41 on ECN-2 films could C41 or something similar work on ECP?"
I thought ECP is also somewhat like a negative film, just giving a positive image. So what is ECP chemistry like? Is it closer to E6 or to C41?
What would happen if I'd use C41 on ECP film?

Photo Engineer · Dec 5, 2016

ECP would need heavy filtration for any lighting condition, and is very slow, about ISO 12 or so.

PE

mshchem · Dec 5, 2016

FilmCurlCom said:
Thank you!

I also wondered if I could use ECP film instead, so some Kodak Vision Color print film.
Would there be any alternative to actual ECP chemistry, so similar to using C41 on ECN-2 films could C41 or something similar work on ECP?
I know, it's not what the films were made for, but C41 on ECN-2 does give images (of lesser quality, stability, ...).
Many people are using ECN-2 films with C41 but for ECP films I did not really find discussions yet.

Bernhard

This seems like the simplest method . It works for the movies. You could shoot original on Kodak Vision cinema color negative film and contact print it on Kodak cinema print film.. Problem is I don't know if short rolls are feasible .
Best Mike

Mogsby · Dec 5, 2016

FilmCurlCom said:
Hi everybody!

But unfortunately the CN200 is not clear at all, it has a quite grayish mask and this prevents the results from being useful for any projection.

Does anyone of you know if there is a way to get rid of the gray color? I tried much longer bleaching (helped a bit, but did not make the film clear). I've seen some others using the Washi X, a second maskless film, but I think this is yet again the same Agfa film that is used for the CN200, AGFA ASP 400X?

Does anyone know of any other maskless films for C41, the only other idea I have would be to use expired Kodak Vericolor Slide Film S0-279, which creates slides in C41.

Bernhard

From my tests on slide film using the xpro, I get the same grey/dark cast. I think it is due to the homemade or Rodinal type first developer.

FilmCurlCom · Dec 6, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
ECP would need heavy filtration for any lighting condition, and is very slow, about ISO 12 or so.

PE

I would try to contact print, emulsion to emulsion and would use a light source where I can accurately control how long its light is on. I have successfully gotten results on intermediate film already, that was said to be ISO 6 or less, so am not worried about ISO 12.

But what is the filtration I would need? Isn't it tungsten balanced, do you mean I have to be very accurate with the light source's color temperature?

And if I could get hold of some ECP print film, which chemistry to use it with, I assume ECP you cannot get in small quantities (same as with ECN-2) so what about C41 or E6 then?

Bernhard

AgX · Dec 6, 2016

mshchem said:
This seems like the simplest method . It works for the movies. You could shoot original on Kodak Vision cinema color negative film and contact print it on Kodak cinema print film.. Problem is I don't know if short rolls are feasible .
Best Mike

This has been done in the past. Firms offered cine camera films (often disguised) converted to type CN 135 and offered processing them to yield paper prints as well as slides.

Photo Engineer · Dec 6, 2016

FilmCurlCom said:
I would try to contact print, emulsion to emulsion and would use a light source where I can accurately control how long its light is on. I have successfully gotten results on intermediate film already, that was said to be ISO 6 or less, so am not worried about ISO 12.

But what is the filtration I would need? Isn't it tungsten balanced, do you mean I have to be very accurate with the light source's color temperature?

And if I could get hold of some ECP print film, which chemistry to use it with, I assume ECP you cannot get in small quantities (same as with ECN-2) so what about C41 or E6 then?

Bernhard

Treat ECP like color paper. IDK OTOMH if ECP uses the same process as ECN. It used to. However, there are sheet films made for making transparencies from negatives. They use the RA4 process.

PE

FilmCurlCom · Dec 6, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Treat ECP like color paper. IDK OTOMH if ECP uses the same process as ECN. It used to. However, there are sheet films made for making transparencies from negatives. They use the RA4 process.

PE

Thanks a lot! I will experiment with this.
Now I have to find out where to get shorter rolls of ECP print film. All I know of is the usual negative shortends at frame24.

iandvaag · Dec 6, 2016

The official ECP process is outlined here:
http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/uploadedfiles/motion/h2409(2).pdf
Note that the developer uses CD-2, unlike the CD-3 used in ECN-2. Also note that an option is given for ferricyanide based bleach which is fairly accessible, however, this is not the same formulation as the ECN-2 Ferricyanide bleach.

Photo Engineer · Dec 6, 2016

Note that this is a VERY old document. The area code for the phone #s was changed years ago from 716 to 585.

PE

iandvaag · Dec 6, 2016

That's good to know, thank you. I had assumed it was correct since it is the document listed on the current Kodak Motion Picture Film website. It says at the bottom of the document that it was revised in 2/10. Would they have changed the process since then? I guess if they didn't update their phone numbers, it's certainly possible that they didn't make sure the rest of the document was up to date either. Thanks for correcting the record.

Photo Engineer · Dec 6, 2016

That's the problem. I don't know.

PE

Craig · Dec 6, 2016

If I'm reading you right, you need Vericolor Slide film, SO279. It was C41 process, and designed for making slides from negatives. Good luck finding any though, long since discontinued.

FilmCurlCom · Dec 7, 2016

Craig said:
If I'm reading you right, you need Vericolor Slide film, SO279. It was C41 process, and designed for making slides from negatives. Good luck finding any though, long since discontinued.

That is one option I already considered (see earlier posts).
You can find Vericolor Slide film still on Ebay. However, what is offered there is expired between 1989 and 1991.
I wonder, not knowing how it was stored, if that would be worth a try or if such an old film is anyways fogged and color shifts would happen.

Bernhard

georgegrosu · Dec 7, 2016

Searching the ECN-1 process I came across "Agfa print CP1 in ECN-2 processing".
From what I understand Agfa enables the positive color in the developer ECN-2 for negative color.
I know that there Agfa are no positive color about 2003?
I know that Agfa print CP1 had been replaced by CP 10 ~ before 2000?
Anyway, you can take that idea.
I apply this method in 1998 when he was very little work and does not good to heat 800 liters of developer to make 50 m of working copy.
I put the prospectus here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21121448@N06/31488544015/in/dateposted-public/

George

FilmCurlCom · Dec 7, 2016

georgegrosu said:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/21121448@N06/31488544015/in/dateposted-public/

George

Looks interesting. I got in touch with several labs, let's see who will be able to provide which quantities of ECP film. If the price is ok I will get that, otherwise I might try the very old Vericolor slide filme.

Maskless negative film in C41 to create slides

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