Masking a negative with Veronica Cass dye

skljocnulbumte · Sep 13, 2018

Hello!
I read a very nice article about masking (dodging) negative with retouching dyes made by Veronica Cass. I'm using variable graded paper and Veronica's dyes are mantioned in his artice are the best for controling a contrast of dodged area.

"With variable contrast papers we have the added benefit that yellow and magenta dyes will tend to slightly decrease or increase print contrast as well as effective negative density. Compared to variable contrast printing filters, the Veronica Cass dyes do not cause much contrast change because of their low color saturation, but can produce perhaps as much as a half–grade change up or down in some cases. The contrast change available is subtle but potentially useful. Use VC Ochre and Fawn Brown to add density while reducing contrast, and VC Mauve to add density while increasing contrast. Use Grayene for added density with no contrast change and Scarlet for more vigorous addition of density without a contrast change."

Are anyone use her dyes for dodging a negative?
Also, is it possible to find anywhere Veronica Cass dyes?

Thanks a lot, Bojan

AgX · Sep 13, 2018

Here are respective dyes from Germany:

https://www.rohrer-klingner.de/?page_id=545&lang=en

Long time ago produced by Schmincke who may be known better.

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 13, 2018

I've dye dodged using Kodak scarlet stuff but never directly on the negative... always on a piece of frosted mylar. Varying degrees of dilution allowed a lot of control. I still do it when printing negatives in alt processes, such as Kallitype and Carbon transfer.

skljocnulbumte · Sep 18, 2018

Andrew O'Neill said:
I've dye dodged using Kodak scarlet stuff but never directly on the negative... always on a piece of frosted mylar. Varying degrees of dilution allowed a lot of control. I still do it when printing negatives in alt processes, such as Kallitype and Carbon transfer.

Do you know, where I could buy Kodak scarlet? Thanks

AgX · Sep 18, 2018

The dyes I hinted at you could get by car.

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 18, 2018

skljocnulbumte said:
Do you know, where I could buy Kodak scarlet? Thanks

I looked at the jar that I have. Proper name is Kodak Crocien Scarlet. It was given to me by a retired screen printer years ago. Lasts forever. I think I recall someone posting that they got crocien scarlet at Sigma Aldrich? If you cannot locate it, I have also used red, water colour paint. Diluted with water, of course! Not as good as the dye, but passable. AND... I often use very soft pencils on mylar (which I prefer).

DREW WILEY · Sep 18, 2018

A tiny bottle of Kodark Crocien powder might last a lifetime. Substitute dyes exist, but the real deal turns up on Fleabay or on old dusty camera store shelves from time to time. You simply make up various weak dilutions in distilled water and put them into little glass bottles for use. The dye can be gently layered up if needed, since it dries quickly. Like Andrew, I recommend applying it to a registered sheet of frosted mylar; but some sheet films still have a good retouching surface on the base side. The dye can be removed with film cleaner. Lots of old Kodak Graphics and Film guides illustrate its usage, as well as old darkroom manuals common in used book stores. Pencil smudge is another classic method, though the bigger the negative, the easier to do. Tiny highlights get their brightness maximized by a fine-point India ink pen. All kinds of tricks out there, many of them faster and more intuitive than Fauxtoshop, just forgotten by most today.

skljocnulbumte · Sep 19, 2018

I suppose that I can also use Marshall's retouching dyes for the same purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong.

DREW WILEY · Sep 19, 2018

We're talking about applying the dye to the film BASE or analogous mylar material. Spotting dyes are meant for paper. You can try them on film, but they tend to form uneven puddles that leave "bathtub rings" of different density just like a muddy pond slowly drying up, since they can't penetrate that kind of material. The real deal Kodak red dye is far more cooperative.

Arklatexian · Sep 20, 2018

DREW WILEY said:
A tiny bottle of Kodark Crocien powder might last a lifetime. Substitute dyes exist, but the real deal turns up on Fleabay or on old dusty camera store shelves from time to time. You simply make up various weak dilutions in distilled water and put them into little glass bottles for use. The dye can be gently layered up if needed, since it dries quickly. Like Andrew, I recommend applying it to a registered sheet of frosted mylar; but some sheet films still have a good retouching surface on the base side. The dye can be removed with film cleaner. Lots of old Kodak Graphics and Film guides illustrate its usage, as well as old darkroom manuals common in used book stores. Pencil smudge is another classic method, though the bigger the negative, the easier to do. Tiny highlights get their brightness maximized by a fine-point India ink pen. All kinds of tricks out there, many of them faster and more intuitive than Fauxtoshop, just forgotten by most today.

I think it was also known as "New Crocien" which is what Ansco called theirs. I have used it to block out unwanted backgrounds on negatives. Note: it will stain your fingers too and I never found anything that would remove it from fingers except time........Regards!

skljocnulbumte · Sep 20, 2018

DREW WILEY said:
We're talking about applying the dye to the film BASE or analogous mylar material. Spotting dyes are meant for paper. You can try them on film, but they tend to form uneven puddles that leave "bathtub rings" of different density just like a muddy pond slowly drying up, since they can't penetrate that kind of material. The real deal Kodak red dye is far more cooperative.

Thanks for informations!

skljocnulbumte · Sep 20, 2018

AgX said:
The dyes I hinted at you could get by car.

I get an informtaion where is it possible to buy scarlet (not Kodak but for photographic materials) and they ship international:
https://www.kuenstlermagazin.de/e-v...sionId=&a=search&SearchStr=Diaphoto+scharlach

AgX · Sep 20, 2018

Otherwise you should get it in Graz.
Diaphoto dyes are basically intended for water absorbent materials and Gelatin best should be wetted before applying to get even surfaces.
Otherwise there also are coloured, but opaque paints used for masking.

DREW WILEY · Sep 22, 2018

It's related to numerous common red dyes including some used for staining microscope specimens. It would be easy to replicate except that even a modest minimum order from a specialized dye house would probably last you a thousand years. Don't put it directly on gelatin or the emulsion itself or you might have trouble removing it without damage to the emulsion. It's likely to aggressively bond to permeable organic materials like that.

skljocnulbumte · Sep 28, 2018

A new question about dye dodging. Where in Europe is possible to buy a good mylar? I bought some via ebay from UK and it is not completely clear. It has some micro marks (like warms). I didn't try to use it but I suppose that this marks will be visible on print. Thanks

AgX · Sep 28, 2018

What about desilvered film and using its gelatin layer?

davidkachel · Dec 20, 2021

skljocnulbumte said:
Hello!
I read a very nice article about masking (dodging) negative with retouching dyes made by Veronica Cass. I'm using variable graded paper and Veronica's dyes are mantioned in his artice are the best for controling a contrast of dodged area.

"With variable contrast papers we have the added benefit that yellow and magenta dyes will tend to slightly decrease or increase print contrast as well as effective negative density. Compared to variable contrast printing filters, the Veronica Cass dyes do not cause much contrast change because of their low color saturation, but can produce perhaps as much as a half–grade change up or down in some cases. The contrast change available is subtle but potentially useful. Use VC Ochre and Fawn Brown to add density while reducing contrast, and VC Mauve to add density while increasing contrast. Use Grayene for added density with no contrast change and Scarlet for more vigorous addition of density without a contrast change."

Are anyone use her dyes for dodging a negative?
Also, is it possible to find anywhere Veronica Cass dyes?

Thanks a lot, Bojan

Better late than never. I didn't see your post until today, or I would have responded sooner. I invented and wrote the original article, on Dye Dodging. It appeared in the May/June 1993 issue of Darkroom & Creative Camera Techniques magazine, page 47. I notice you didn't mention who wrote it which naturally makes me wonder if someone else published it under his/her name, which has happened fairly often. If so, please direct me to that publication and the name of the "author" that appears on the article.
Veronica Cass died a number of years ago and closed her company some time before that. Her dyes have not been available for quite some time. I found this thread because I happened to be looking for a possible substitute, thus far with no success. The dyes suggested in this thread should NOT be used. They are not suitable. Also, the dyes must NEVER be applied directly to the negative. The original article clearly states that a blank sheet of film must be taped down over the negative in the film holder and the dyes applied to the blank sheet only. The purpose of the dyes is to block light (dodging), contrast changes are only secondary, can be had with only some dyes and are very minor
David Kachel
I would upload a PDF of the original article but I get a message that the file is too big. It's only 11 megabytes.

MattKing · Dec 20, 2021

Thanks for posting David.
If the article happens to be posted elsewhere, you could include a link.
Otherwise, Photrio's attachment and downloading size limitations limit you to exchanging the article via email or something like DropBox.

Masking a negative with Veronica Cass dye

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