Marks on neg, what did I do wrong?

dealy663 · Apr 28, 2005

Hi,

I processed my 4th roll of film at home a couple of days ago and got some strange marks on the negative. I was wondering if any of you might recognize what I did wrong that would have caused them. These marks appeared on 3 or 4 frames in the middle of the roll. I loaded this roll of 120 Tri-X on to a plastic Jobo 1510 (I think) reel and processed it by hand in a Jobo plastic tank. I don't remember doing anything wrong like mishandling the film as I wound it on to the reel.

This is my 3rd roll of 120 using these tools, and the first time I've seen these kinds of marks. I developed in D-76 for the standard 6:45 min, using normal agitation once every 30 seconds.

This first link is to a scan of the whole frame:
Dead Link Removed

This next link is to a 100% crop of the problem area:
Dead Link Removed

eric · Apr 28, 2005

Those marks look strangly like clouds, rocks, birds and water. How that got in the way of those cool streaks...I don't know.

Seriously though, they kinda look like it happened AFTER processing. They kinda look like drying stains. Can you possibly refix and rewash it and see if it goes away?

Fotohuis · Apr 28, 2005

A Jobo 1510 tank is for 35mm film only (250 ml). In a Jobo 1520 tank you can develop 2x135-36 or 2x 120 rolfilm or 1X 220 rolfilm (around 500 ml volume).

I think you forgot to fault over or remove the adhesive tape on your rolfilm and that part have made contact over the negative in your Jobo reel.

The distance in a Jobo 1501 reel is quite close. Next time gently remove the adhesive tape of the rolfilm.

Best regards,

Robert

kaiyen · Apr 28, 2005

If the tape got stuck wouldn't that have decreased/inhibited development in those spots, decreasing/eliminating density, and yielding dark spots? (I am not sure, just thinking aloud here).

Perhaps he ripped the tape off too vigorously and the spark exposed the film?

allan

eric · Apr 28, 2005

kaiyen said:
Perhaps he ripped the tape off too vigorously and the spark exposed the film?

allan

I've seen those before (happened to me more than a few times). They actually look like lighting bolts on the negative. Actually quite cool to see.

Paul Howell · Apr 28, 2005

Are the marks on the emlsion side or the film base? It looks like the film based was scuffed up somehow. It could be water spot. Do you a wetting agent in distilled water following washing?

Fotohuis · Apr 28, 2005

Do you a wetting agent in distilled water following washing?

The first thought was also something like that, but analysing in detail you can see that there has been some mechanical contact to that place.

Water spots are dried in stripes when used to much or to little wetting agent.

Robert

photobackpacker · Apr 28, 2005

Do you use a Squeegy on your film to remove water?

dealy663 · Apr 28, 2005

Probably the tape

I didn't think about cutting the tape completely off. I just cut it where it was attached to the paper, so there was some tape left on the film while it was developed.

I use photoflo in distilled water after the wash. I also ran my squeegee over the film after hanging, but didn't stop at all, just one continuous swipe.

I believe the mark is on the base side.

Thanks for the good ideas.

Derek

George Collier · Apr 28, 2005

Being on the base side, almost seems like it would have to be mechanical, like abrasion. I assume you tried a film cleaner. Something is deflecting light as it passes through, looking like emulsion density, but letting enough light through to see grain, and some detail in some places. I would rule out the tape thing, unless it is actually tape residue that survived the processing, or something else that is not water soluble. Film clean or isopropyl alcohol ( as close to 100% as you can get) should work for that.
Something else you could try-there use to be a product by Edwal called "No Scratch", I think, or something like that. No one I knew ever wanted to use it, because it is basically a greasy stuff that fills in scratches to keep them from interfering with exposure, or something like that. The substitute was nose, or forehead grease, depending upon your gene pool. In this case, you could try a little skin grease on the spot just to see if it changes the effect on printing. Film clean or alcohol will clean it off.
Ain't photography great?

kaiyen · Apr 28, 2005

if you just cut off the tape, did you leave any exposed at the end, that you didn't fold over? If any part of the adhesive was still hanging out...maybe that's what happened.

personally, I peel the tape slowly off the paper backing, then fold it over. I do not cut it off.

allan

mikeb_z5 · Apr 28, 2005

Maybe the squeegee did it. I don't use one and don't really think it's necessary.

Mike

rogueish · Apr 29, 2005

It almost looks like the film edge/end was moving against that part of the film. Acting like a scraper.
Is the Jobo reel a ratchet load style? If it is, could be you kept the ratchet action going after the film was fully loaded. might cause the film end to move and scrap against itself.

Monophoto · Apr 29, 2005

The fact that this is showing up as a white anomaly in a print means that the negtives have extra density in these areas. And I presume from the description that these marks appear on several negatives in middle of a roll of 120 rollfilm.

Abbrasion marks on the emulsion side usually result in reduced negative density, ie, dark spots in the print. Conversely, serious abbrasion on the back of negatives can appear as increased density. So these are either back abbrasion, or something that is adhering to the film to increase density.

Are these marks equally spaced or do they appear in random locations on successive negatives on the roll?

Several posters have wondered about a problem with the tape that attaches the film to the paper backing. When I put roll film on a reel, I usually put the tape end in first (at the center of the roll). I could imagine a situation with the film reversed (tape end at the outer end of the spiral) where the tape could create a problem if the adhesive from the tape transfers to the back of the film directly beneath it in othe reel (proably about two frames from the end of the strip). But that would be only one spot, not a repeating series.

The fact that the anomaly repeats causes me to wonder about the following potential problems:

1. A dirty squeegee. I NEVER squeegee film - rinse it in photoflo and then hang it to dry in a dust-free cabinet.
2. A problem with the camera. Did you sense any resistance as you were rolling the film between exposures that could suggest some kind of binding in the camera?
3. Winding the film too tightly after exposure, and putting pressure on the exposed roll.
4. Defective packaging of the film.

I would try cleaning the negatives to see if that would resolve the problem. I keep a bottle of lighter fluid in the darkroom - that works very well for removing gunk from the back of negatives. Or you could try rewashing the film, soaking it in photoflo, and then redrying it.

Donald Qualls · Apr 29, 2005

Okay, above post has most of the answer -- the marks are dark on the film. They're clearly from some kind of contact or smear. I think they're pressure marks, which would have to occur before development (in loading, advancing, unloading, or putting the film into the reel). You'll sometimes see density (especially in medium format) in the form of crescents where the film has buckled and either direct pressure or something akin to triboluminescence (in the base, the gelatin, or the halide crystals themselves) creates latent image centers; I pretty commonly see marks very much like this from relatively light friction on the surface of microfilm stock I use in my subminiature cameras -- that film lacks an overcoat, so it's relatively sensitive to this, but stronger pressure, even if it doesn't scratch the emulsion, can make the same kind of marks on any film.

The size, shape, and location of the marks suggests (to me) that it's a handling problem in the darkroom (or changing bag), and as such it's unlikely to repeat unless you have a systematic error in the way you load the film onto the reel for processing.

dealy663 · Apr 29, 2005

Hey guys, thanks for all the useful tips and info. I did learn something new about the tape at the end of the roll being a potential source of the problem. Also next time I will not use the squeegee, thought I know that it didn't cause the big marks (they were there before I squegeed the film). I do see other much smaller marks that could've been caused by the squeegee.

The large marks appeared on either two or three frames (I'm not at home right now and can't look). They were largely of the same form on the other frames, though not quite as big. The fact that it occurs on more than one frame is really puzzling. I didn't notice anything weird when loading, shooting, or finishing up that roll of film. I shot two other rolls of film after this troubled one that day and the problem didn't appear on them. So I doubt it was the camera or more specifically the 120 back.

Given that I'm a newbie to developing 120 film myself, I think that it is entirely possible that I somehow abraded the film when loading it. Though everything went pretty smoothly and I didn't have any trouble loading this roll. Interestingly though, I really thought I had goofed when I loaded the other two rolls of Delta 100 (on to one 1501 reel) and was pretty sure that I had ruined the inner roll. However both of them came out just fine.

The other thing that also seems like a possibility is that the roll simply had a defect from the factory. How could I get three marks of the same general shape size and position on three frames in the middle of the roll while loading the film? That seems like a rather large coincidence doesn't it?

Derek

Fotohuis · Apr 29, 2005

The chance of a film defect from the factory is very, very small. Further developing a 120 rolfilm is no rocket science. But as beginner 2x120 rolfilm on one 1501 reel with the Jobo clip is an excelent endresult because on most given darkroom seminars a lot of my guests do not succeed.

Wish you a lot of succes in your developing method.

Robert

Ed Sukach · Apr 29, 2005

Fotohuis said:
The chance of a film defect from the factory is very, very small. Further developing a 120 rolfilm is no rocket science. But as beginner 2x120 rolfilm on one 1501 reel with the Jobo clip is an excelent endresult because on most given darkroom seminars a lot of my guests do not succeed.

I've been loading two (2) rolls of 120 on a single 1500 series JOBO reel for years, now. Occasionally, the "outer" film will override the little red tab after it has been pushed back in, but it is rare.. and I've never had it affect any image.... I don't try to overload. One can feel when the film is loaded "enough".
I have mis-loaded film, but even that is rare.

I know that manufacturing defects are rare - but they do happen, and the more I hear of this the more I suspect exactly that. I don't think it is a mechanical defect of the camera .. the base side of the film is effectively protected by the paper backing.

BTW ... I've just developed eight rolls of C-41 film, two at a time, using 250 ml of chemicals per tank - JOBO recommends 270 ml - with absolutely *no* problems.

Woolliscroft · Apr 29, 2005

It looks like scratching to me. Make sure you have a clean camera pressure plate. If it is on the base side you might try rubbing a minute amount of petroleum jelly into the affected area.

David.

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 29, 2005

Wouldn't that scratch the paper backing, though? Unless you're using 220 film, of course.

Woolliscroft said:
It looks like scratching to me. Make sure you have a clean camera pressure plate. If it is on the base side you might try rubbing a minute amount of petroleum jelly into the affected area.

David.

eric · Apr 29, 2005

Woolliscroft said:
It looks like scratching to me. Make sure you have a clean camera pressure plate. If it is on the base side you might try rubbing a minute amount of petroleum jelly into the affected area.

David.

Scratches would be a negative without any silver so when you print it, it'll come out dark.

This is a true mystery.

Dealy? -- any progress?

Ed Sukach · Apr 29, 2005

huggyviking said:
Wouldn't that scratch the paper backing, though? Unless you're using 220 film, of course.

I *LOVE* that Berniece Abbott quote, Huggy. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The paving is done BY those with good intentions as well.

Woolliscroft · Apr 29, 2005

eric said:
Scratches would be a negative without any silver so when you print it, it'll come out dark.

This is a true mystery.

Dealy? -- any progress?

Not if it is on the base.

David.

p.s. Sorry, I forgot not everyone uses 220 I don't use much 120.

Marks on neg, what did I do wrong?

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