Marks on my film - Paterson tank.

rayonline_nz · Nov 2, 2020

Hi all

I developed some Ilford FP4 125 in fresh Ilford ID-11 1+1. The film was bought from someone at my camera club which is expired but stored in fridge. I had 9 rolls in the same batch. Never seen this before. I developed them inside a large Paterson tank. So 2 rolls together of this Ilford FP4 stuff at the same time, the other roll had no issues. What can the marks be due from? Could it be the sticky tape that had made contact with the film as I was loading it? Camera was an RB67.

Cheers

rayonline_nz · Nov 2, 2020

Here is another frame which I gotten some residue. RB67, Fuji Acros 100 the first version developed in ID-11 1+1. I haven't done the developing any differently it was also developed in a large Paterson tank with the white plastic reels. 2 rolls developed at the same time together, the other roll came out fine without issues. Fortunately apart from this first frame, the rest of the roll was fine also.

Cheers.

BradS · Nov 2, 2020

why do you mention the Paterson tank?
There's no way the defects in the first post have anything to do with the tank or reels.
It's not at all obvious what the defect is in the second post but again, how can the tank have anything to do with it? The film never touches the tank and if you've loaded the reels correctly, then the reels cannot possibly have any effect either.

rayonline_nz · Nov 2, 2020

Re: the second post the image is posted underneath. Is it some of the liquid got trapped in the developing reel? Was it the way how it dried? I hanged it up with a laundry peg on the bottom so it was held straight.

I just mentioned about the developing tank to give people more information so they can provide some feedback.

winger · Nov 2, 2020

In the first one, I don't have any suggestions. The second looks like parts of the film weren't loaded quite right on the reel and were touching, therefore not getting the same contact with the chemistry.

shutterfinger · Nov 2, 2020

1st concern- a verity of things cause similar marks, a). static electricity, b). bending the film while loading, c). unevenly mixed developer, pour in splatter pattern, uneven wetting of the film with developer at initial pour in during tank fill with developer.
Was the affected roll at the top or bottom of the tank?

rayonline_nz · Nov 2, 2020

shutterfinger said:
Was the affected roll at the top or bottom of the tank?

The affected roll I think was on top. The last batch I did with FP4 125. I usually load the earlier shot roll first. The affected roll was the 2nd roll I loaded so on top.

shutterfinger · Nov 2, 2020

Try prewetting the film (aka pre wash) for 3 to 5 minutes prior to the developer. Use constant inversion agitation for the first minute. I use JOBO tanks which say to do a prewash. Ilford says not o do a prewash with their films. Ilford films in JOBO tanks without a prewash have streaks.

AgX · Nov 3, 2020

Concerning the first type of artefact, I have not seen such before. And I find the two respective explanations given by Shutterfinger not convincing in this case. Concerning static, the respective artefacts in the images I have seen were different, though I have come across similar patterns at dust layers, seemingly static induced.
I am clueless.

itsdoable · Nov 3, 2020

rayonline_nz said:
View attachment 258515

Is the pink tinge next to the artifact present on the actual film, or is that only in the scan. Pink on the film usually indicates under fixing.

The artifacts on the 1st film have the characteristics of liquid streaks. How much agitation during processing and fixing? Wiping before hanging? Do you use photoflo?

Saganich · Nov 3, 2020

In the second issue, the film was tight against another object at those spots, like when the film is reeled wrong and overlapping, so the developer and fix don't quite get to that location. Does the first issue look like uneven development caused by not enough developer in the tank?

grat · Nov 3, 2020

Just to verify, you were using the Paterson 3 tank, with two rolls of 120 film, yes? Were you using the full 1 liter of chemicals?

Ian Grant · Nov 3, 2020

rayonline_nz said:
Re: the second post the image is posted underneath. Is it some of the liquid got trapped in the developing reel? Was it the way how it dried? I hanged it up with a laundry peg on the bottom so it was held straight.

I just mentioned about the developing tank to give people more information so they can provide some feedback.

View attachment 258519

That's to do with your fixing, those areas developed OK but hadn't fully cleared. You can get air bells in fixing as well as developing although usually not an issue.. You don't say how fresh your fixer is/was.

Ian

photojournaliste · Nov 3, 2020

I'm not sure if its the tank at fault here.

Ian Grant · Nov 3, 2020

I'm sure it's not the tank at fault, you can see clearly the negative developed OK in those dark areas. I think top edge of the top roll in the spiral and insufficient agitation and not quite enough volume, I always use just over a litre for two 120 reels.

The lines on the first are probably slight surface scratches to the emulsion. Acros has a significantly softer emulsion compared to many other films, PE speculated it may use Whale Gelatin. The direction of the lines also give a clear indication that they are in fact scratches.

Ian

rayonline_nz · Nov 3, 2020

itsdoable said:
Is the pink tinge next to the artifact present on the actual film, or is that only in the scan. Pink on the film usually indicates under fixing.

The artifacts on the 1st film have the characteristics of liquid streaks. How much agitation during processing and fixing? Wiping before hanging? Do you use photoflo?

The first photo is off a scanner but yes I do see the same marks on the actual negative.
The second photo with the blotches on the bottom is the actual negative. The photograph was taken with the film on the lightbox with a modern D camera.

I invert 4 times after the developer is poured in and then every minute thereafter, each time a firm tap on the table. With the stop bath I use the plastic rod to stir it every 15 or so seconds. Ilford Ilfostop only says 10 secs. I do at least 30 secs. With Ilford Rapid Fixer it says at least 3 minutes I tend to go for 5mins at least. I use the plastic rod and stir it every 1 minute. I don't tap it with the stop bath or the fixer. For drying I hang it up with a clip to the ceiling of my garage inside and I use a laundry peg on the bottom. Learning off someone I instead use Kodak Photoflo in a water spray bottle and spray it down when it is hung up to dry. I don't wipe it down b/c I have been told to do so so to prevent scratches.

But again this is the same technique I use for all my other film in the past, including the other identical roll that was developed in the tank at the same time.

Note - the 1st photo and the first photo is not in the same developing tank. First photo is Ilford FP4 with another FP4 that turned out fine. The 2nd photo is Fuji Acros 100 (original version) at a different batch with another Fuji Acros 100 that turned out fine.

rayonline_nz · Nov 3, 2020

Saganich said:
In the second issue, the film was tight against another object at those spots, like when the film is reeled wrong and overlapping, so the developer and fix don't quite get to that location. Does the first issue look like uneven development caused by not enough developer in the tank?

Re: 2nd issue. All the frames I can see they all look fine, no uneven development. Apart from the first frame of those blotches on the bottom corner, al the other 9 frames (6x7) looks fine.

grat said:
Just to verify, you were using the Paterson 3 tank, with two rolls of 120 film, yes? Were you using the full 1 liter of chemicals?

I used a Paterson Super System 4 Film Development Tank. It does up to 5x 35mm reels. I used 2 120 sized reels. I used 1000ml of liquid for all my developer, stop bath and fixer. Maybe I should use a bit more? I also used a white round clip that goes above the reels on the black spindle to help hold my reels down in place.

Ian Grant said:
That's to do with your fixing, those areas developed OK but hadn't fully cleared. You can get air bells in fixing as well as developing although usually not an issue.. You don't say how fresh your fixer is/was.

Ian

The fixer is dated on the bottle 09/2019 by the manufacturer or the store. I first mixed it up for my first batch. I did my first batch in March 2020 and the second batch was October 2020 which I disposed of it and mixed up another 1L. I usually do up to 6 rolls and I dispose and remix. The first photo and second photo in question here are from my October 2020 sessions. 1st session is the first photo here (FP4 125), the 2nd session is my second photo here (Acros 100).

Ian Grant said:
I'm sure it's not the tank at fault, you can see clearly the negative developed OK in those dark areas. I think top edge of the top roll in the spiral and insufficient agitation and not quite enough volume, I always use just over a litre for two 120 reels.

The lines on the first are probably slight surface scratches to the emulsion. Acros has a significantly softer emulsion compared to many other films, PE speculated it may use Whale Gelatin. The direction of the lines also give a clear indication that they are in fact scratches.

Ian

I will use a bit more liquid next time. I shot 2 rolls of Acros one on the RB67 and one on the 500CM, and I developed in the same tank at the same time. A bit at a loss to why. The other Fuji roll came came fine. Perhaps I just loaded it differently in the wardrobe and it affected the film or it was how it was loaded in the camera .....

rayonline_nz · Nov 3, 2020

Maybe it is true bubbles maybe? Re: the 2nd posted above photograph (RB67). This below is the other Acros 100 roll I developed (500CM) at the same time. I get these marks on the far left and right sides. I will try to use more liquid next time but the 1L has been a convenient size to use without wastage.

Marks on my film - Paterson tank.

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