Market effect of the new Leica M6

Guth · Feb 15, 2023

AZD said:
My personal take is that film is cooling down a bit from the pandemic high. Part of it is the same financial concerns affecting everyone. A friend and musician who frequently sells/trades gear has seen interest wane similarly.

This ties in with the point I was attempting to make above. I'm the sort of person that hung on to my turntable and LP's after CD players came along, who hung on to my film gear after digital cameras came along, who is still clinging on desperately to my cars with manual transmissions, etc., etc.. I've watched the values of all these things rise rapidly over the past few years. While it appears to me that such things are still selling for quite a bit more now than they were pre-pandemic, I have seen them all cool down to some degree more recently.

AZD said:
Maybe those early 2000’s digicams will take over after all.

You can't rule the possibility that they might enjoy increased popularity for some time yet to come. It seems that part of what kicks off any trend in renewed interest for old tech is often a low price of entry. Given their low prices, early digicams no doubt appeal to a lot of people who might be interested in using a dedicated camera for photography (instead of their smartphones) but don't have a whole lot of money to play around with. Given that there are others out there generating excitement about early digicams, it's easy enough to give one a try when they can still be found for cheap. Beyond a certain price point however, all bets are off.

brbo · Feb 15, 2023

Guth said:
When the new M6 was released, I read that as part of this campaign it was announced that Leica stepped up their support of the entire M6 range and now have the parts needed to repair all versions of the M6 including the M6 TTL. This caught my eye as I own a M6 TTL, but we all know how unreliable reporting on the web can be these days. Note that I did not read this as part of a Leica news release, but rather on a site reporting on the new M6 along with all of the money and effort Leica put into gaining favor with the press when it came to the rollout of the new M6. Personally, I'm still a bit skeptical and would want to confirm this with Leica directly before sending a M6 TTL in for repair.

The introduction of the new M6 changed nothing in the availability of the parts for the old M6 and M6TTL. Circuit board that was often the problem in the old M6 and M6TTL is different in the new M6.

chriscrawfordphoto · Feb 15, 2023

The New M6 scratches film? Seriously? If you needed any more evidence that Leica doesn't give even the smallest flying F--- about working photographers, there it is, mi amigos.

I shoot with Leicas; I have two IIIf bodies, an M3 and an M4-2 and a bunch of lenses. None bought new. I did attempt to buy a new 28mm f2.8 Elmarit ASPH a few years ago and the one I received was decentered. I returned it and didn't bother trying another.

brbo · Feb 15, 2023

How bad are the scratches anyway? At least they are only on the base side of the film If the pressure plate is at fault...

GregY · Feb 15, 2023

madNbad said:
There was a black paint M4 on the Portland craigslist, it was first listed at fifteen grand. The last time I saw it, the price had dropped to less than half of the original price. The one I kick myself for was the week I bought a "LN" M4 from an online seller (of course it needed work) an elderly photohrapher from central Oregon brought a big box of gear into a local shop. I missed the late run, black chrome M4, basically unused in the original box for $750. Someone else had grabbed the M2R earlier in the day.

I bought my '67/68? black paint M4 in 2018 for $2800....the same amount i sold my MP for. In '98 i bought an original M2 black paint in Paris for $700 (canadian $).

Huss · Feb 15, 2023

brbo said:
The introduction of the new M6 changed nothing in the availability of the parts for the old M6 and M6TTL. Circuit board that was often the problem in the old M6 and M6TTL is different in the new M6.

Yeah that was a whole bunch of BS that Leica released through its surrogates to hype up the release of the new M6.
The clue is that they were intentionally very vague and ambiguous with their statements. And it always was “I heard” or “so I’ve been told..” but when pushed there was no actual source nor a definitive statement.

Here’s an even bigger clue. They cannot even repair my new M6 because they do not have correctly manufactured pressure plates. If they cannot even provide that, you think they are busy making parts for 40 year old cameras?

Guth · Feb 15, 2023

Leica has become such a runaway lifestyle marketing machine these days that I'm generally embarrassed to admit I own some of their equipment.

Huss · Feb 15, 2023

Guth said:
Leica has become such a runaway lifestyle marketing machine these days that I'm generally embarrassed to admit I own some of their equipment.

I wouldn't be embarrassed to admit that. They make fantastic gear that is a joy to use. When it works. Problem is their current quality control processes are non-existent.
At the moment they are shipping Leica M11s that freeze up. The new 35mm 1.4 lens with broken aperture blades - all you have to do is look at the lens! You don't even have to use it! The new 35mm Steel Rim Summilux that they did not test with the supplied lens hood, so did not notice that it hard vignettes with it on. And the M6 that scratches film.

What they do do... is pack a cute little hand signed quality check card with each product, stating that it had been checked at multiple times in its manufacture to make sure it is the best product you can buy. As they include that card, it must be true.

Guth · Feb 15, 2023

Huss said:
I wouldn't be embarrassed to admit that.

That might be okay for you. I see them as being far more concerned with things like their upscale boutique stores and high-end watches than getting the little things right that yourself and brbo mentioned above. Thus the Leica of today is not the sort of company I particularly care to be associated with.

To be fair, I've acknowledged numerous times that reinventing themselves as a lifestyle brand is what saved Leica in my opinion and likely the only reason that they are still around today. They essentially did what they needed to do. Not only have they survived because of this, but they can now charge prices that have outpaced inflation while simultaneously getting away with the very things that you've mentioned. While Leica gear has never been inexpensive, these days they've clearly positioned themselves to cater to the elite. I'm guessing that's about the only segment of the population who would put up with such things.

madNbad · Feb 15, 2023

Leica has to adjust to the new reality of their suppliers providing less than specified parts. Whoever made the new pressure plates produced them with specified material and dimensions packed them and shipped them. The argument could be made the suppliers quality control could be better but until the part is installed and the camera is finished, it would be difficult to determine where the flaw is and how is it scratching the film. The proper process would have been to test several cameras with each batch of pressure plates before releasing the cameras for sale to the general public. In an earlier time Leica made two cameras, the M2 and M3, had total control over the manufacturing and installation of the parts, those days are long gone. Just the camera division has many more options for the buyers, the cameras are far more complicated and many more parts are sourced from small companies world wide. The new M6 was a marketing idea to capitalize on the increased sales of the original. Since it's mostly an MP, there shouldn't have been any problems but there are. The proper thing for Leica is to issue a recall and expedite the repairs for the cameras already sold. You think they would have learned from the M9.

Patrick Robert James · Feb 15, 2023

Huss said:
I wouldn't be embarrassed to admit that. They make fantastic gear that is a joy to use. When it works. Problem is their current quality control processes are non-existent.
At the moment they are shipping Leica M11s that freeze up. The new 35mm 1.4 lens with broken aperture blades - all you have to do is look at the lens! You don't even have to use it! The new 35mm Steel Rim Summilux that they did not test with the supplied lens hood, so did not notice that it hard vignettes with it on. And the M6 that scratches film.

What they do do... is pack a cute little hand signed quality check card with each product, stating that it had been checked at multiple times in its manufacture to make sure it is the best product you can buy. As they include that card, it must be true.

Wow, I don't follow Leica much but that is a lot of problems for the amount of money they charge. Maybe instead of the quality check card they should include a FedEx label....

Huss · Feb 15, 2023

What protects Leica is the denial of issues, no matter how real they are, by their fan-bois. This is common across many products and brands, but seems to be more prevalent with Leica. When you have a large segment of your customer base who thinks you can do no wrong, no matter what, well it doesn't encourage tightening things up.
And lets be honest here, when a large segment of their customer base buys a Leica film camera to add to their collection (mainly digital shooters etc) and may, if ever, shoot only a roll or two through it before putting it on the shelf, do you think they care or pay attention?

On that 'other' site, when this scratching was initially mentioned, accusations flew that these stories were fabricated, there was a hidden agenda, user error, acceptable levels of scratching, flat out denials that a problem such as this could exist, defective film etc

Pieter12 · Feb 15, 2023

Guth said:
That might be okay for you. I see them as being far more concerned with things like their upscale boutique stores and high-end watches than getting the little things right that yourself and brbo mentioned above. Thus the Leica of today is not the sort of company I particularly care to be associated with.

To be fair, I've acknowledged numerous times that reinventing themselves as a lifestyle brand is what saved Leica in my opinion and likely the only reason that they are still around today. They essentially did what they needed to do. Not only have they survived because of this, but they can now charge prices that have outpaced inflation while simultaneously getting away with the very things that you've mentioned. While Leica gear has never been inexpensive, these days they've clearly positioned themselves to cater to the elite. I'm guessing that's about the only segment of the population who would put up with such things.

I don't think the elite or wealthy put up with shoddy products, no matter the prestige attached to them. Plus, if photography is important to them, they most probably own many examples--so if an individual camera has a flaw, it gets sent back and another one takes its place in the meantime. Like some finicky high-end cars.

Few pros seem to use the film Leicas except to impress a client. It is more likely the wealthy are either not using the cameras much, just owning them as showpieces. They probably don't use film anyway. But Leica has a history of major issues with their digital products, too. The "ambassadors" or spokespeople won't say anything negative about the brand, as they get their equipment either free or highly discounted and quickly replaced if a problem crops up.

Pieter12 · Feb 15, 2023

Huss said:
What protects Leica is the denial of issues, no matter how real they are, by their fan-bois. This is common across many products and brands, but seems to be more prevalent with Leica. When you have a large segment of your customer base who thinks you can do no wrong, no matter what, well it doesn't encourage tightening things up.
And lets be honest here, when a large segment of their customer base buys a Leica film camera to add to their collection (mainly digital shooters etc) and may, if ever, shoot only a roll or two through it before putting it on the shelf, do you think they care or pay attention?

On that 'other' site, when this scratching was initially mentioned, accusations flew that these stories were fabricated, there was a hidden agenda, user error, acceptable levels of scratching, flat out denials that a problem such as this could exist, defective film etc

The denial that one has made a mistake with a major purchase is common.

Guth · Feb 15, 2023

Huss said:
What protects Leica is the denial of issues, no matter how real they are, by their fan-bois. This is common across many products and brands, but seems to be more prevalent with Leica. When you have a large segment of your customer base who thinks you can do no wrong, no matter what, well it doesn't encourage tightening things up.
And lets be honest here, when a large segment of their customer base buys a Leica film camera to add to their collection (mainly digital shooters etc) and may, if ever, shoot only a roll or two through it before putting it on the shelf, do you think they care or pay attention?

On that 'other' site, when this scratching was initially mentioned, accusations flew that these stories were fabricated, there was a hidden agenda, user error, acceptable levels of scratching, flat out denials that a problem such as this could exist, defective film etc

If fan-bois = those buying new Leica equipment today then I agree. It doesn't matter what anyone says about Leica (this includes myself) or where they might be saying it at, it is the people who are buying new Leica gear today (whatever their intentions might be) keeping Leica Camera in business.

Pieter12 · Feb 15, 2023

Curiously, I just got a survey from Leica about an M camera with only an EVF. I told them never.

Huss · Feb 15, 2023

A fan-boi is not necessarily someone who buys new gear today, but that person who has their head in the sand.

I bought the M6 new. But am raising holy heck that they shipped defective product. Because I had a deal here - I gave them my money. They give me something that works.
As a reminder, this is not a one off. They admitted there is a batch of defective pressure plates. So whatever camera has them, it will scratch film.

Huss · Feb 15, 2023

brbo said:
How bad are the scratches anyway? At least they are only on the base side of the film If the pressure plate is at fault...

mshchem · Feb 15, 2023

Huss said:

That's just stunning. Huss, is this before or after they "repaired" the first time?

Huss · Feb 15, 2023

mshchem said:
That's just stunning. Huss, is this before or after they "repaired" the first time?

That was before the first 'repair'. Similar result after.

mshchem · Feb 15, 2023

Huss said:
That was before the first 'repair'. Similar result after.

Astounding. What a cluster.

Mike Lopez · Feb 15, 2023

Huss said:
A fan-boi is not necessarily someone who buys new gear today, but that person who has their head in the sand.

I bought the M6 new. But am raising holy heck that they shipped defective product. Because I had a deal here - I gave them my money. They give me something that works.
As a reminder, this is not a one off. They admitted there is a batch of defective pressure plates. So whatever camera has them, it will scratch film.

You should probably sell your new M6. Maybe you can recover ten of your dollars.

Huss · Feb 15, 2023

Mike Lopez said:
You should probably sell your new M6. Maybe you can recover ten of your dollars.

It would be worth $10 if it didn’t scratch film. But the way it is? Someone would lowball me.

Two23 · Feb 15, 2023

I have three Barnack Leicas (IIIc, IIIf) and four 1940s vintage lenses, so I'm not really a Leica guy, but I do buy a fair amount of historical photo gear every year. Mostly I'm into early (pre-1865) brass lenses--I shoot wet plate. In the past several months I have picked up some astonishing lenses (plus a near pristine Deco Rolleicord) for considerably less than what they were going for a couple of years ago. I do think there has been a bit of a slump in prices.

Kent in SD

snusmumriken · Feb 16, 2023

It’s probably one of those tricks of the eye, but I can’t quite figure out what we are looking at here (post #44). Why is one side grey (undeveloped?) and the other side black (developed?)? Why does the black side have distorted sprocket holes? Is it a shadow? Is the scratch in question the pale narrow line straight down the centre of the photo, and why does that look grainy rather than sharp-edged when zoomed in? What is the broader line to the left of it?

Market effect of the new Leica M6

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