Marbles

Peter Black · May 15, 2007

Maybe I've lost mine, but here goes anyway! There are 3 pages of threads on APUG where marbles are mentioned, always(?) with reference to putting them in part used containers of chemicals to physically fill them up and exclude air. I've read this advice over many years, but have never really heard from anyone who actually does this.

The question is therefore whether there are any downsides to this, do they affect developers, can you just clean them with hot water, do they get coated with fixer, and whatever other advice you might think would be relevant.

Thanks in advance!

Akki14 · May 15, 2007

The bottles get VERY heavy. You can't pour out that last bit without pouring marbles everywhere. That's what I've found when using them, anyway. It does seem to keep the developer alive for a bit longer since it means there's less contact with the air. If you can, just decant into smaller bottles. Easier, same theory at work - always trying to keep full bottles around instead of half full bottles.

glbeas · May 15, 2007

The best use I've found for marbles is to drop one in the jug to help with the agitation when dissolving a batch of developer.

Shmoo · May 15, 2007

I've had some luck using "Private Preserve" in my bottles...it's used to help preserve partially opened bottles of wine.

DWThomas · May 15, 2007

I've been using them in a bottle of HC-110 concentrate for about a year. It seems to work out pretty well. I'm using clear glass ones found in the craft area at Mal-Wart or one of those stores. You do eventually get to the point where there is liquid left in the spaces between marbles, but they are up to the top of the bottle. Using 7.5 ml per one-shot dilution H mix, it's taken a long time to get to that point. I suppose decanting into a smaller bottle, if I had a suitable one, might help. Glass beads smaller than typical marbles might work better too -- if I knew where to find them cheaply.

Glass is relatively impervious, and hot water should clean them off pretty easily unless they've been allowed to encrust from air exposure.

DaveT

radiantdarkroom · May 15, 2007

Well, I have never heard of marbles before, doesn't make much sense to me since I have none. What does work well are those mini floating balls that help stop oxidation in large containers.

Mick Fagan · May 16, 2007

I have lots and lots of marbles in my darkroom. In fact I have two plastic ice cream containers full of them.

I've been using marbles in solution containers (usually jam jars) since I first saw my grandfather do it in the fifties.

I mix up D76, usually in 1 litre batches. I pour the concentrate into a washed 1 litre glass juice bottle. Now the juice bottle is actually holds more than 1 litre, so I have to place about 1 handful of marbles into the container to bring the solution to the brim.

When decanting I just tip the solution out and use smaller jars. When getting to the end of the solution I simply use the screw cap to hold the marbles in and drain the jar that way.

I then soak the marbles in fresh water for the session, which is usually a developing session and then give them a few rinses in fresh water and a bit of a slosh around with each rinse.

I've been using the same marbles for about 18 years in this darkroom. I have some very tiny marbles which can fit through the narrow neck of my 250ml lab bottles with glass stoppers, and I have really large ones about 30mm in diameter for some of the larger stuff.

You would be surprised at the amount of real darkroom workers who have been in my darkroom, and asked what are all the marbles for!

Mick.

juan · May 16, 2007

My impression is that using glass bottles is more important than using marbles. A lot of plastics, including the ones used in many of the bottles sold in photo stores, are O2 permeable. If you think about it, the surface area of the bottle is far greater than the surface area of the developer inside the bottle, thus the developer is exposed to more oxygen through the sides of the bottle.
juan

David A. Goldfarb · May 16, 2007

I used to do this, and it works fairly well, but it does require a lot of marbles. Now I tend to mix my own developers in quantities that let me keep everything fresh, or with the parts in separate solutions, so I don't have to worry as much about oxidation.

fotch · May 16, 2007

I buy the 1 gal. or equal packages. Use to use the plastic darkroom bottles before finding out that they are not so good.

So, I picked up a bunch of brand new 250ml brown wide mouth bottles that I plan to mix up and then store my Dektol, D76, Xtol or whatever in. From what I have told and read, the stock solution will keep 6 months to a year by getting the air out. I will fill the bottles to the top and then seal. In using, I will use the whole bottle for working solution. If I need more solution, for paper developer, will use several of the stock bottles.

PS. If anyone needs these bottles, I have extras.

Jim

fhovie · May 16, 2007

I still have marbles - I haven't used them in a while - I had a amber glass bottle of developer - the marbles went in ok but would not come out - finally they broke the bottle - in a wide mouth they would probably be easier to use. I still like the idea but I am not fighting external oxidation failure and the marbles do not prevent chemistry deterioration from within - I just use up my chems while they are fresh.

GeorgesGiralt · May 16, 2007

Hi !
When in High School, the guy at the lab teaching B&W used marbles everywhere.
We had scratches on every film because the marbles got shipped and the tiny bits of glass make terrible things to the soft gelatin in the tanks during agitation.
Since that time, I've avoided them like the plague .....
My solution is to divide and pre-dilute the developer and store it in full up to the brim amber bottles. This ensure perfect conservation of chemicals, and have no problem yet.

Peter Black · May 16, 2007

Thanks for your thoughts guys, I think I'm leaning towards the small bottle idea instead.

Flotsam · May 16, 2007

Many use Butane of some other gas to displace the air in partially filled bottles.

Mick Fagan · May 17, 2007

I run my developer solutions through a coffee filter when de-canting from a storage bottle, always!

I have never had an issue with chipped glass prior to final filtering of my solutions, which I've been filtering for the last 18 years only.

Mick.

Steve Roberts · May 17, 2007

I use plastic hollow balls about 5/8" diameter sold specifically for the purpose of filling up air space in bottles. They certainly improve the keeping qualities of chemicals, but once that seal is broken you can only slow down the deterioration of the contents, not stop it completely.

Steve

Matthew Gorringe · May 17, 2007

I'm sure Ilford used to offer Multigrade developer in wine casks and that's what I continue to use for my Xtol. If you make sure that there is no air in the bladder to begin with then no air ever gets in.

They can be kept in the original cardboard cartons, are completely opaque and very convenient with their little tap. I'm currently using Xtol that was mixed over 6 months ago with tap water, and am using it at high dilutions, and am getting very repeatable results.

My only concern is whether the plastic of the bladder will degrade over time releasing compounds into the developer. Anyone have any bad experiences with baldders?

dancqu · May 17, 2007

Peter Black said:
Thanks for your thoughts guys, I think I'm
leaning towards the small bottle idea instead.

Amber or clear glass Boston Rounds are a standard for
storing many laboratory chemicals; that includes darkroom
chemistry. They are not expensive. Caps are important and
a variety are available for Boston Rounds.

The capacities of the Rounds are specified in ounces.
In reality the capacities are fractions of a liter save for
the one ounce which holds 35 milliliters.

They are much available. Search by Google or at eBay
for, "Boston Rounds". For darkroom use be sure they have
the Polyseal or Polycone caps. If not using a lot of chemistry
a dozen each of the 35ml, 62.5ml, 125ml, and 250ml sizes may
last a life time. The smallest are good for one-shots. Dan

Steve Smith · May 17, 2007

I have not tried this, it is just an idea I thought of whilst reading this thread....

What about putting a balloon into the emty space at the top of the bottle and blowing it up so it just fills the air gap?

I'll leave you to find a way of sealing it so you can get the lid on! Some sort of clip perhaps?

Steve.

Curt · May 17, 2007

I have a story from an actual marble experience. A classmate put his marbles in a glass jar and put developer in it. He kept the jar at school on a shelf. One day I was in the darkroom printing when he came in, said hello, picked up his jar of developer and marbles while at the same time exclaimed "fresh developer!". As soon as the words came out so did the marbles, developer and glass. The bottom of the glass jar came right off and hit the floor running. He spent the afternoon cleaning up the darkroom, floor and walls.

I used to use the accordion jugs until a full one flopped over sloshing developer on me and the counter. I just keep chemicals in smaller containers and use them up before they expire.

hka · May 17, 2007

I use marbles for years now only in the small size bottles till 250ml, no problems so far...

Marbles

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