Mamiya Six Automat Folder Issue

noahsmith · Oct 21, 2018

Hi Everyone,

I just picked up a Mamiya Six Automat folder, shot a test roll and there are what appear to be some light leak issues. I took photos of the negatives with my iPhone and then inverted them so disregard quality/warped frame. As you can see, the light leaks run vertically on the frame and appear to be in a similar area. On the negative, you can see how the light leak runs outside of the frame too.

Some context, I have taken a flashlight to the bellows in the dark and also looked through the back of the camera and I haven’t been able to see any pinholes or light leaks in them. I noticed that most of the images I shot indoor did not have light leak issues but the ones taken outside did, although two of the photos outside didn’t have an issue.

Shot these with Ilford HP5 and developed with DD-X 1:4, I’ve been developing black and white for a while so I don’t think it’s a processing issue. The back of the camera has a red window that you can slide open for viewing which frame you are on even though it’s uncessary since there is a frame counter under the film advance knob. I slid that window open 2 times while I was outside and I’m wondering if maybe some light got in from that?

Also, noticed some strange faint horizontal white lines in the top areas of my photos, reference images attached below. Any thoughts on what that could be from? I really appreciate any thoughts or tips, thanks everyone

-Noah

shutterfinger · Oct 22, 2018

What flashlight? and did you put it inside the bellows while looking at the outside of the camera?
A AA Mini Mag set to focus a spot at 2 inches or an LED flashlight works best.
Shine the light next to the bellows along the corners and folds. Observe from the outside, anything other than pure black is a leak.

You have a pinhole leak causing a secondary exposure. Carefully examine the shutter as a shutter blade may be rusted through with a pin hole or weak spot in the tip area where the blades overlap.
Also check the back seals especially at the hinge and latch.

Dan Daniel · Oct 22, 2018

Place the film back inside the camera as it would be shot (flipped, etc.). Most importantly, have a frame with a leak both one frame back and one frame forward from being exposed. I think what you will find is that the leak marks align with a roller (or some other object; I don't remember the interior of this camera) before or after the film is in the opening for exposure. Once you locate where this roller is you might be able to see the leak spot itself. The way that the leak sort of 'blooms' is reflection from the roller. Check for seals on the back, the latch area, and for any missing screws, front back, side, top, bottom.

Be methodical. Light leaks can be very hard to track down.

noahsmith · Oct 22, 2018

shutterfinger said:
What flashlight? and did you put it inside the bellows while looking at the outside of the camera?
A AA Mini Mag set to focus a spot at 2 inches or an LED flashlight works best.
Shine the light next to the bellows along the corners and folds. Observe from the outside, anything other than pure black is a leak.

You have a pinhole leak causing a secondary exposure. Carefully examine the shutter as a shutter blade may be rusted through with a pin hole or weak spot in the tip area where the blades overlap.
Also check the back seals especially at the hinge and latch.

Sorry, I meant to say that I I used a small LED flashlight to look for leaks. I looked everywhere and also checked out the shutter/shutter blades and didnt see anything unusual.

noahsmith · Oct 22, 2018

Dan Daniel said:
Place the film back inside the camera as it would be shot (flipped, etc.). Most importantly, have a frame with a leak both one frame back and one frame forward from being exposed. I think what you will find is that the leak marks align with a roller (or some other object; I don't remember the interior of this camera) before or after the film is in the opening for exposure. Once you locate where this roller is you might be able to see the leak spot itself. The way that the leak sort of 'blooms' is reflection from the roller. Check for seals on the back, the latch area, and for any missing screws, front back, side, top, bottom.

Be methodical. Light leaks can be very hard to track down.

Thats a good idea but unfortunately, I already cut the negatives so I could scan them and look at the leak better. Is there a good way to look for leaks around the seals on the back/latch area with the camera fully closed? Should I have the lens open in bulb mode so that if im shining light near the latch area on the back, it would show through on the lens?

Dan Daniel · Oct 22, 2018

noahsmith said:
Thats a good idea but unfortunately, I already cut the negatives so I could scan them and look at the leak better. Is there a good way to look for leaks around the seals on the back/latch area with the camera fully closed? Should I have the lens open in bulb mode so that if im shining light near the latch area on the back, it would show through on the lens?

Tape the negatives back together. Really, 2/3 of the answer will happen when you see where exactly the light is falling. Why go pissing in the dark when the negatives will show you? Even your photo above shows two negatives together- that will do it.

I'm going to guess latch, seals, or a missing screw. Also study the upper plate, shutter release, counter area, strap lugs, etc. for possible sources.

I have found lots of leaks with an LED flashlight in a dark room. Just keep the light shielded from directly shining on your eyes with the camera body. And keep moving the light around- LEDs are directional.

noahsmith · Oct 22, 2018

Dan Daniel said:
Tape the negatives back together. Really, 2/3 of the answer will happen when you see where exactly the light is falling. Why go pissing in the dark when the negatives will show you? Even your photo above shows two negatives together- that will do it.

I'm going to guess latch, seals, or a missing screw. Also study the upper plate, shutter release, counter area, strap lugs, etc. for possible sources.

I have found lots of leaks with an LED flashlight in a dark room. Just keep the light shielded from directly shining on your eyes with the camera body. And keep moving the light around- LEDs are directional.

I have a question about how I'm supposed to see a light leak around the back door with the camera back closed, I've uploaded a video to better explain: https://photos.app.goo.gl/zmUHbftfpV8vWpdL9

Also, I've attached two images below that show what the negative looks like as it would normally be in the back of the camera. It does seem like (maybe) the rollers are reflecting somehow on the film itself but again, its hard to tell and I'm not sure if these photos are conclusive.

summicron1 · Oct 22, 2018

this may be a stupid question but you do have the removable pressure plate that you install while loading the film, right?

That vertical leak, the one on the right side of the image that looks like light shining on two sides of something laying across the film, is intriguing ...This is definitely not because of the red window. Almost looks as if light is sneaking in from the front of the camera on the outside of the bellows and into the body of the camera, right about where one of the film rollers is located. If that's the case, the camera is falling apart, would be obvious.

Hmmm.

I'd stand in a very dark room, shine a very bright flashlight into the insides of the camera and see if there's a leak anywhere. If nothing shows up, shoot a second roll and see if it duplicates.

noahsmith · Oct 22, 2018

summicron1 said:
this may be a stupid question but you do have the removable pressure plate that you install while loading the film, right?

That vertical leak, the one on the right side of the image that looks like light shining on two sides of something laying across the film, is intriguing ...This is definitely not because of the red window. Almost looks as if light is sneaking in from the front of the camera on the outside of the bellows and into the body of the camera, right about where one of the film rollers is located. If that's the case, the camera is falling apart, would be obvious.

Hmmm.

I'd stand in a very dark room, shine a very bright flashlight into the insides of the camera and see if there's a leak anywhere. If nothing shows up, shoot a second roll and see if it duplicates.

Yep, I put the pressure plate over the film while loading it. I've tried standing in the dark and shining a light through the bellows/back of the camera and i cant see any light entering anywhere. I might shoot another test roll but I feel like I'm going to have the same results. Will keep you posted.

shutterfinger · Oct 22, 2018

In the darkroom have you shinned the light into the supply and take up chambers while looking at the exterior of the camera?
The strip of negatives 12 - 13 tell me the most. The way the camera is built the only way the rebate area can be exposed is in the supply or take up chambers as the film travels into and out of the image frame.

noahsmith · Nov 19, 2018

Hi everyone, just following up on this thread.

I sent the camera out to be CLA'd and to specifically be looked at for light leaks. I got the camera back from repair yesterday and shot a test roll today and it still has the same kind of light leaks as shown in the original post for this thread. I'm letting the negatives dry right now so I can post photos of it later.

Does anyone have any thoughts or recommendations? I'm completely at a loss right now with what to do.

Thanks.

Kino · Nov 19, 2018

Have you looked at the back of camera in the dark, with the bellows folded and the film door open? Any chance the bellows are separating from the mounting frame and the pressure of closing the bellows opens a seam between exposures?

The fogging extends across the entire rebate and the backing paper should block the light from the rear, so it would seem the light must be coming from the front of the camera.

I am not familiar with the internals of the camera; is there any place the light could strike all the way across the surface of the film?

noahsmith · Nov 19, 2018

Kino said:
Have you looked at the back of camera in the dark, with the bellows folded and the film door open? Any chance the bellows are separating from the mounting frame and the pressure of closing the bellows opens a seam between exposures?

The fogging extends across the entire rebate and the backing paper should block the light from the rear, so it would seem the light must be coming from the front of the camera.

I am not familiar with the internals of the camera; is there any place the light could strike all the way across the surface of the film?

Thanks for the response and great questions. I have tried looking at the camera in the dark with the bellows folded and film door open but can't seem to find a leak still. I agree, it seems the light leak must come from the front of the camera. As others have mentioned, it looks like the leak is reflecting off of the metal rollers in the back of the camera but where the light is coming from is a mystery.

Daire Quinlan · Nov 19, 2018

Doesn't necessarily have to come from the front. These cameras move the film backwards and forwards to focus, and with the film all the way forward (i.e. focused to infinity) there's ample room for light to bounce around the place if the red window is open at the back. Tellingly, the versions of the Mamiya 6 that don't have the automatic film advance (and you'd be expected to periodically open the red window to advance) have an awkward rubber ring / light baffle arrangement between the back and the hole in the focusing plate. Here's an extreme example, the red leak is from the back of the camera, the white one because the bellows had cracked and was leaking like a sieve :-D

noahsmith · Nov 19, 2018

Daire Quinlan said:
Doesn't necessarily have to come from the front. These cameras move the film backwards and forwards to focus, and with the film all the way forward (i.e. focused to infinity) there's ample room for light to bounce around the place if the red window is open at the back. Tellingly, the versions of the Mamiya 6 that don't have the automatic film advance (and you'd be expected to periodically open the red window to advance) have an awkward rubber ring / light baffle arrangement between the back and the hole in the focusing plate. Here's an extreme example, the red leak is from the back of the camera, the white one because the bellows had cracked and was leaking like a sieve :-D

Thanks for the info, very helpful. Do you think it would be helpful if I put some black tape over the red window on the inside of the backdoor? I'm also considering painting the chrome rollers with a flat black enamel paint in the take up chambers .

Dan Daniel · Nov 19, 2018

noahsmith said:
I have a question about how I'm supposed to see a light leak around the back door with the camera back closed, I've uploaded a video to better explain: https://photos.app.goo.gl/zmUHbftfpV8vWpdL9

Also, I've attached two images below that show what the negative looks like as it would normally be in the back of the camera. It does seem like (maybe) the rollers are reflecting somehow on the film itself but again, its hard to tell and I'm not sure if these photos are conclusive.

So the leak area will probably match one of the metal rollers to either side of the film opening. I'll let you figure out which one but it should be obvious once the film is in the camera as it was exposed. So this tells you that light is coming from the front, into the chamber on one side; the roller is shielding the center area while also bouncing the light right along its length.

Without having the camera in hand I can't say specifically what is causing the leak. But I will guess the side wall of the bellows/lens compartment, or the joint where the bellows and side wall meet. Put a flashlight inside one side or the other of the spool area and shine towards the side wall while looking from the front.

Daire Quinlan · Nov 19, 2018

noahsmith said:
Thanks for the info, very helpful. Do you think it would be helpful if I put some black tape over the red window on the inside of the backdoor? I'm also considering painting the chrome rollers with a flat black enamel paint in the take up chambers .

It -should- be sufficent to make sure the sliding metal window is over it at all times. The leaky pic above came from a 6 that I had in which the auto advance wasn't working too well, so I kept on having to open the window, advance the film, then close the window. Of course every now and again I'd forget that last bit :-/

noahsmith · Nov 19, 2018

Dan Daniel said:
So the leak area will probably match one of the metal rollers to either side of the film opening. I'll let you figure out which one but it should be obvious once the film is in the camera as it was exposed. So this tells you that light is coming from the front, into the chamber on one side; the roller is shielding the center area while also bouncing the light right along its length.

Without having the camera in hand I can't say specifically what is causing the leak. But I will guess the side wall of the bellows/lens compartment, or the joint where the bellows and side wall meet. Put a flashlight inside one side or the other of the spool area and shine towards the side wall while looking from the front.

Yep, I've done that and still am not seeing any kind of leak. Really confuses me.

noahsmith · Nov 19, 2018

Daire Quinlan said:
It -should- be sufficent to make sure the sliding metal window is over it at all times. The leaky pic above came from a 6 that I had in which the auto advance wasn't working too well, so I kept on having to open the window, advance the film, then close the window. Of course every now and again I'd forget that last bit :-/

So you dont think painting the chrome rollers or even the chrome on the pressure plate is necessary?

Daire Quinlan · Nov 19, 2018

noahsmith said:
So you dont think painting the chrome rollers or even the chrome on the pressure plate is necessary?

Well, no. You have a leak SOMEwhere no amount of painting the rollers or pressure plate will fix that. If you are in the habit of leaving the metal window open at the back then that could be your culprit. If not, then the jury is still out.

shutterfinger · Nov 19, 2018

Carefully observe the shutter blades while operating the shutter at all speeds.
Do the blades come to a complete stop on closing or do they bounce? Any bounce may be very slight.
Do the blades stay flat against one another throughout the operation cycle?

noahsmith · Nov 19, 2018

Daire Quinlan said:
Well, no. You have a leak SOMEwhere no amount of painting the rollers or pressure plate will fix that. If you are in the habit of leaving the metal window open at the back then that could be your culprit. If not, then the jury is still out.

Gotcha, nope I never mess with the metal window although it does seem a little loose but who knows if that's whats actually causing the leak.

noahsmith · Nov 19, 2018

As a reference, this is what my latest roll of film looks like with the light leak.

noahsmith · Nov 19, 2018

shutterfinger said:
Carefully observe the shutter blades while operating the shutter at all speeds.
Do the blades come to a complete stop on closing or do they bounce? Any bounce may be very slight.
Do the blades stay flat against one another throughout the operation cycle?

The shutter blades look fine after seeing them at each speed but good question.

noahsmith · Nov 19, 2018

One thing I noticed, when I shine a light through the focus wheel area, I can see it coming through in the rangefinder window on the left. Is that normal?

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