Mamiya RB67 Vs Mamiya 645 Pro TL

QuinnRobot · Feb 17, 2011

I'm definitely not ruling out the WLF! With only my basic knowledge of the field I would dare rule anything out!

I've used a WLF on a friends tlr and found it pretty incredible so I'd certainly be thinking about using one, but for the general ease of changing from portrait to landscape I do really like the idea of the prism. Plus it'll help me make the change from 35mm a little less pronounced.

Has anybody ever vouch their setup piece by piece from the very start, looking on eBay it seems that the best way to get a good deal on and ETRS would be to buy each part separately?

tkamiya · Feb 17, 2011

If you are patient, you can buy a nice kit right here on APUG. Classified section usually have one or two MF kit for sale probably every week. KEH also has 'em and they provide return privilege and warranties. If you are new to this type of gear, I'm less inclined to suggest buying piece-by-piece. Compatibility issues between different models within the same camera family can be daunting.

One very nice thing about WLF is that when you compose, you are looking at how your end result will look right in the view finder. While prism is basically the same thing, it's more like looking at a window. I tend to spot more compositional issues when using WLF. That said, I have a metering prism on my M645.

film_man · Feb 17, 2011

As someone who has sold quite a bit of camera kit on ebay over that last few years, I have found that the general rule is selling separately makes you more money than all as one kit. So buying separately would be...

PS
And if you buy separately you have to pay postage for each item. Which is a minimum of 4 parts on an ETRS (lens, body, finder, back).

Steve Smith · Feb 17, 2011

QuinnRobot said:
Im based in Hampshire so if anyone owns either of the cameras I'd love to be able to hold them and try them out for a bit. Even just seeing one with my own eyes will be very helpful.

If you want to take a boat trip to the Isle of Wight, I can show you my Bronica ETRS and my father's Mamiya 645 (not sure which model).

Steve.

Jeff Kubach · Feb 17, 2011

I have a TLR and the RB67. Love them both! I like the RB67 even though it is big and heavy which doesn't bother me. I'll go with RB67 because of the bigger negative.

Jeff

QuinnRobot · Feb 17, 2011

Thanks Steve if I don't have any luck hunting tonight then I might just take you up on that visit! How much is the hovercraft these days?

I can definitely appreciate peoples opinion of the rb67 negatives but I thing the 645 cameras are still edging things. Plus anything is going to look giant compared to my 35mm negatives!

Steve Smith · Feb 17, 2011

QuinnRobot said:
Thanks Steve if I don't have any luck hunting tonight then I might just take you up on that visit! How much is the hovercraft these days?

I don't know, I haven't used it for a while. I know it costs you more from your side than it costs us though!

EDIT: I have just had a shock looking at Hovertravel's website. Day return is £19.50 and no Isle of Wight residents' discount any more!

Wightlink is better. Day return Portsmouth to Ryde pier is £15.20 (only £11.90 from this side!).

Steve.

MattKing · Feb 17, 2011

You might find my listing of a Mamiya 645 Super kit in the APUG classifieds to be of interest :

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The Super is the predecessor to the Pro, and shares much of the same advantages/is compatible with most of the same accessories (like interchangeable backs).

If we are able to keep the weight down to 2 kilograms or less, the shipping would be about $50.00

FWIW, I own and use both Mamiya 645 and Mamiya RB67 equipment (among others). They are so significantly different that I have no hesitation in recommending you get both.

The 645 cameras are optimized for hand-held work. The 6x7 cameras get more benefit (larger negative) from use on a tripod. But I use my 645 on a tripod regularly, and shoot the RB67 hand-held from time to time too (in days of yore, people used them for weddings!).

Issues about availability of accessories and service will vary from region to region, so they might determine whether a Mamiya is a better choice than a Bronica, or vice-versa.

It is a fun choice to make!

Athiril · Feb 17, 2011

Steve Smith said:
They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

The RB67 has almost twice the negative area of the 645 but it is also bigger and heavier. I like hand holding mine but others would only consider using it on a tripod.

The 645 is lighter and easier to carry but has a smaller negative area. It gets 15 (or is it 16) shots to a roll of 120 compared to only ten with the RB67.

They will probably both cost about the same and either would be a step up from quality compared to 35mm so really it's down to their individual features and your personal preferences to mke the decision.

have a look at this thread for some related discussion: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Steve.

You can get 645 backs for the RB.. I would like one for mine.. but then I actually want a separate 645 system (or even 6x6) to have a lighter carry around.. such as a Bronica, or other, or Yashica or Rollei TLR etc.

In any case I do often hand hold my RB67 too

Steve Smith · Feb 17, 2011

MattKing said:
in days of yore, people used them for weddings!

I did a couple of weddings with my RB67 just two years ago.

Steve.

picker77 · Feb 17, 2011

re waist level finders on Mamiya 645's: Just once I wish someone would post a photo of themselves using their M645 in the "portrait" position with a WLF. That would be something to see.

I'm with the "both" crowd. I have both RB67 Pro-S and M645 Pro TL kits, as well as a Bronica RF645. Although 90% of the time in the darkroom I prefer working with the results from the RB, it does get to be a chore to schlepp around. The M645 is in the middle in both size and speed/ease of use (but still heavier than I like to carry all day), with results in the darkroom that approach but do not quite equal the RB, at least with B&W film. The Bronica RF645 is the all time world champ in my eyes when ergonomics, weight, carry-ability, speed and ease of use are all considered, but as has been pointed out lens choices are severely limited. That's ok with me, because I like its 65mm for 95% of my handheld/walkaround shots anyway. And when I leave the house for the entire day and want a camera with me that won't send me to the Ibuprofen bottle when I get home, I've found the little RF645 around my neck ALWAYS brings home better photos than the big, heavy RB67 and it's four-pound tripod that I left sitting at home!

Bottom line is there is no do-it-all camera. It's always a trade-off, and each of us must make our own personal trades. Once the MF bug bites, you'll try them all eventually anyway. The MF road, like the LF highway, is paved with paper currency.

MattKing · Feb 17, 2011

picker77 said:
re waist level finders on Mamiya 645's: Just once I wish someone would post a photo of themselves using their M645 in the "portrait" position with a WLF. That would be something to see.

Camera on a tall tripod, raised to eye height.

Head is flipped over so that WLF and viewing screen on camera is oriented toward the side.

Photographer stands to the side of the tripod and looks at inverted image from that side.

I'll try to get a pic the next time I do it.

Steve Smith · Feb 17, 2011

I did once use my ETRS on its side with the waist level finder... and handheld. I bought the prism finder for it very soon after that!

Steve.

CGW · Feb 17, 2011

MattKing said:
Camera on a tall tripod, raised to eye height.

Head is flipped over so that WLF and viewing screen on camera is oriented toward the side.

Photographer stands to the side of the tripod and looks at inverted image from that side.

I'll try to get a pic the next time I do it.

Just post a shot from "Das Boot" of Jurgen Prochnow at the periscope...

QuinnRobot · Feb 17, 2011

Now that's a picture I'd defnitely like to see.

Can anyone nay, someone please post me a link to the results produced from your exploits with both these types, googling and flickring the brand names just brings up either a picture of the camera themselves, or pictures of dogs.

I've found a Bronica ETRS thats currently going for around £100 but that's bound to shoot up any second! with non metered prism

Scratch that, I'm out of practice with these last minute eBay wars.

film_man · Feb 17, 2011

You mean like these?

http://www.flickr.com/groups/mamiyarz6x7rb7x676x7/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/mamiya645/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/etrs/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/bronica/

MattKing · Feb 17, 2011

QuinnRobot said:
Now that's a picture I'd defnitely like to see.

Can anyone nay, someone please post me a link to the results produced from your exploits with both these types, googling and flickring the brand names just brings up either a picture of the camera themselves, or pictures of dogs.

I've found a Bronica ETRS thats currently going for around £100 but that's bound to shoot up any second! with non metered prism

Scratch that, I'm out of practice with these last minute eBay wars.

These are from my APUG gallery. The Tree shot is on E100GX transparency film shot in one of my Mamiya 645 bodies (I think the Pro, but it may have been the Super I'm selling) and the shot titled "Looped" is on Plus-X and is a close-up of a thin line shot with my RB67:

I may very well have used a WLF for the tree shot - I certainly did for "Looped".

If you become an APUG subscriber, you can see much more .

QuinnRobot · Feb 17, 2011

Film Man that's great, for some reason the though to search groups complete evaded me! There's just the small problem now that everyone seems to be amazing with every type of camera.

Matt, that shot of the rope is excellent, I'm going to really have to up my game after diving into MF!

2F/2F · Feb 17, 2011

The RB will be more versatile and full featured, and thus better for those who shoot a wide variety of things in a wide variety of scenarios. This would cover most truly professional photographers. The huge feature over the 645 is not the frame size, but that every lens is a leaf shutter lens usable at all shutter speeds, not only certain lenses at a narrow range of speeds like with the 645. It might sound silly, but the revolving back really is a huge feature IMO. I do not like shooting verticals with my 645 cameras, as it is a bit awkward to advance the film, and I consider a prism a must for doing it when I do. A WLF really disorients me when the camera is tilted, and it also requires you to face away from your subject. The RB also has a built-in bellows to allow close focusing with any lens.

For general casual picture taking, however, I would say that you do not need a lot of these features, and that unless you print really big all the time, the increase in frame size is not really an advantage either. 645s are more easy to carry on you throughout the day, and don't require changing film as often. I also find them a little faster to use and easier to focus, not to mention that the lenses are faster over all.

I have both. I largely use the RZ for "good" medium format photography, more as a small view camera without movements than as a big 35mm. I do use it hand held without qualms, though, and also on a tripod of course. I use the M645 (no exchangeable magazines like the one you are looking at) for when I want a convenient camera, mostly hand held, that I will use primarily like a big 35mm, as a cheater way to get better image quality. In other words, I use the 645 when I will be shooting subjects that are suited to 35mm, but I want to be able to make very sharp and grain free prints that I want to have the option of printing large while maintaining this sharpness. I use them most often with fast films, as this adds hand holding capability, and grain is reduced and sharpness increased from what you would expect from fast films in 35mm format.

hpulley · Feb 17, 2011

film_man said:
The ratios are:
...
6x4.5 = 1.33:1
...
135/35mm (36x24mm) = 1.5:1
...
So 645 is more "square" than 35mm film.

Wow, am I ever math challenged today? Thanks for the corrections... lack of sleep is my only excuse... slinking away...

QuinnRobot · Feb 23, 2011

We have a winner, well at least in the sense that I've bought myself a medium format camera.

I found and subsequently bought this;
Dead Link Removed

A Bronica ETRS.

Now all I need is some film, a speed grip, a light meter and KNOWLEDGE!

I really can't thank you all enough for the advice. You were all absolutely fantastic!!

film_man · Feb 23, 2011

If you have an iPhone, the lightmeter app is a very good substitute for the 59p it costs.

QuinnRobot · Feb 23, 2011

You're kidding?? There's an iPhone app? Is it any good?

So many questions!

film_man · Feb 23, 2011

It's ok. You run the app, you set two of the aperture/iso/shutter you want then take a photo and it tells you what the 3rd parameter should be and the EV. I find it generally accurate, if the photo looks ok on the screen the EV is ok and it pretty much matches my ambient readings from my Sekonic. The catch is that it only works down to EV 3 (iPhone camera limitation) and it is obviously slower (a few clicks and iPhone camera delay) than just pushing a button on a lightmeter. But if I don't want to carry the lightmeter, I have no hesitation using it, especially with negative film.

film_man · Feb 23, 2011

Oops, actually it is £1.79, not 59p. Still, compared to my £179 Sekonic L358, it does very well.

Mamiya RB67 Vs Mamiya 645 Pro TL

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