Mamiya M645 Questions

Hello,

I am thinking about picking up a M645 Pro camera, AE Prism and WG401 and lens. I want a more modern 645 so I think the "Pro" will get me that.

I am confused about the lens, specifically the leaf shutter and focal plane lens.

Here is an excerpt from the M645 Pro instruction manual:



Apparently from above, the leaf shutter lens get you automated flash features (and the obvious benefits of flash sync), and auto cocking from the WG401.

Apart from the above, is there any other reason to pay the higher cost of the leaf shutter lens? Newer, I think. Optically better? Anything?

Finally, do the leaf shutter lens start with an "A", as in A55mm f/2.8N/L?

Thanks.
Steve.

Steve:

It is sort of the other way around.

The Mamiya 645s (in all their versions) are predominantly designed to be used as focal plane shutter cameras, but they do offer, as accessories, a limited number of lenses that have built in leaf shutters.

When you use one of those leaf shutter lenses, you have to cock the shutter in the lens separately, and you have to make sure that the focal plane shutter (which is also actuated every time you take a photograph) is set for no faster than 1/8 of a second.

If you have the latest versions of the leaf shutter lenses, and the Power Drive Grip WG401, and the right connectors (IIRC) than the combination will set the focal plane shutter speed and cock the lens shutter automatically. Otherwise, you have to do it yourself manually.

The leaf shutter lenses are less frequently found - they may be older, or they may be newer than the nearly equivalent non-leaf shutter lenses.

They are, however, bigger, and may be slower.

I don't know whether they start with an "A", but they usually end with an "L", as in 55mm f/2.8N/L vs 55mm f/2.8N.

By the way, the "N" designation indicates the most recent version, as compared to the "S" or simply the "C".

I've never seen a head to head comparison as to optical quality.

I look at the leaf shutter lenses as being special purpose (especially good for fill flash) and expect that most of them are/were used by wedding photographers.

there are no automated flash features (as far as I am aware) associated with the leaf shutter lenses or the Mamiya M645 Pro. There is a TTl flash feature available with the M645 Pro TL, but that is not in any way related to the lenses.

I have an old 70mm leaf shutter lens which I like, but which gets much less use than the 55mm or 110mm non leaf shutter lenses I prefer.

Hope this helps.

Matt

optique said:

Hello,

I am thinking about picking up a M645 Pro camera, AE Prism and WG401 and lens. I want a more modern 645 so I think the "Pro" will get me that.

I am confused about the lens, specifically the leaf shutter and focal plane lens.

Here is an excerpt from the M645 Pro instruction manual:

Attaching special leaf shutter lenses will automatically set the focal plane shutter to 1/8 sec. Heavy duty gears connect to the improved Power Drive Grip WG401. This grip also automatically cocks the leaf shutter lenses and permits remote control​

Apparently from above, the leaf shutter lens get you automated flash features (and the obvious benefits of flash sync), and auto cocking from the WG401.

Apart from the above, is there any other reason to pay the higher cost of the leaf shutter lens? Newer, I think. Optically better? Anything?

Finally, do the leaf shutter lens start with an "A", as in A55mm f/2.8N/L?

Thanks.
Steve.

Click to expand...

Hi,

First off, there is no such thing as a "focal plane lens" (enter someone with some weird exception). A focal plane shutter is one of the two main types of shutters; a leaf shutter being the other. Focal plane shutters are in a camera body, and leaf shutters are almost always in a lens.

The camera has a focal plane shutter built into its body. This is the primary way the camera operates. A couple of lenses for the system had leaf shutters, however. When you use these lenses, the leaf shutter in the lens becomes the shutter that actually times your exposure (at any speed you select on the lens), while the in-body focal plane shutter automatically slows to '8, in order to get out of the way and let the leaf shutter do its thing.

The benefit of the leaf shutter is that you can use flash at any shutter speed. This is of great use when you are combining flash and ambient light when the ambient light is fairly bright, requiring a higher shutter speed than the focal plane shutter's max. synch. speed, and/or when you want to use fill flash when using a wide aperture, requiring a faster shutter speed than the focal plane shutter's max. synch speed. IMO, this greatly increases your options for using artificial lighting on location, and is well worth the cost if that is something you do often.

The presence of a leaf shutter has nothing to do with whether or not you have TTL flash exposure capability. Your body determines that.

The motor drive automatically cocks the leaf shutter as the film advances. I would gather that without the motor drive attached, you must cock the leaf shutter by hand after each shot, though I have the earlier M645 models, so I don't know exactly how the M645 Pro is.

2F/2F said:

First off, there is no such thing as a "focal plane lens" (enter someone with some weird exception). A focal plane shutter is one of the two main types of shutters; a leaf shutter being the other. Focal plane shutters are in a camera body, and leaf shutters are in a lens.

Click to expand...

Not quite the weird exception you asked for but I have a Kodak Retina Reflex III with a leaf shutter in the body, not the lens.


Steve.

Steve Smith said:

Not quite the weird exception you asked for but I have a Kodak Retina Reflex III with a leaf shutter in the body, not the lens.


Steve.

Click to expand...

Yes, there are some in-body leaf shutters. I think my Electro 35 has one, though I will have to pull it out to check for sure. My Sinar DB shutter is "in-body" as much a view camera has a body. I wish more cameras had in-body leaf shutters.

I changed my first post to be more accurate.

MattKing said:

Steve:
I don't know whether they start with an "A", but they usually end with an "L", as in 55mm f/2.8N/L vs 55mm f/2.8N.

By the way, the "N" designation indicates the most recent version, as compared to the "S" or simply the "C".

I've never seen a head to head comparison as to optical quality.
Matt

Click to expand...

Matt, thanks for the reply.

The fact that there is no optical comparison is good, I think. Maybe the diffs are small. Plus, the Leaf shuttered lens are more expensive.

I read the M645 Pro manual, and the "A" prefix is used there, but attempting to figure out what KEH is actually selling is often confusing. Before ordering, I need to clarify with them.

Thanks for clarifying things for me.

2F,

I must have phrased my question ambiguously. I own and use both kinds of shutters routinely, though I shy away from using flash if possible.

I see now I should get, carefully now, the lens that relies on the focal plane. Cheaper, too!

Thanks for the response.
Steve.

2F/2F said:

Hi,

First off, there is no such thing as a "focal plane lens" (enter someone with some weird exception). A focal plane shutter is one of the two main types of shutters; a leaf shutter being the other. Focal plane shutters are in a camera body, and leaf shutters are almost always in a lens.

The camera has a focal plane shutter built into its body. This is the primary way the camera operates. A couple of lenses for the system had leaf shutters, however. When you use these lenses, the leaf shutter in the lens becomes the shutter that actually times your exposure (at any speed you select on the lens), while the in-body focal plane shutter automatically slows to '8, in order to get out of the way and let the leaf shutter do its thing.

The benefit of the leaf shutter is that you can use flash at any shutter speed. This is of great use when you are combining flash and ambient light when the ambient light is fairly bright, requiring a higher shutter speed than the focal plane shutter's max. synch. speed, and/or when you want to use fill flash when using a wide aperture, requiring a faster shutter speed than the focal plane shutter's max. synch speed. IMO, this greatly increases your options for using artificial lighting on location, and is well worth the cost if that is something you do often.

The presence of a leaf shutter has nothing to do with whether or not you have TTL flash exposure capability. Your body determines that.

The motor drive automatically cocks the leaf shutter as the film advances. I would gather that without the motor drive attached, you must cock the leaf shutter by hand after each shot, though I have the earlier M645 models, so I don't know exactly how the M645 Pro is.

Click to expand...

I used my fathers Mamiya 645 for the first time last weekend. I really enjoyed using it. I have a Bronica ETRS but the Mamiya seemed more solid somehow. It just seemed to handle better. Not that there is anything wrong with the way the Bronica handles.


Steve.

I had the 150 leaf lens. It was quite useful for fill flash outdoors with 1/500 sync speed. After awhile the leaf shutter started getting unreliable. It most likely just needed a CLA. I kept using it in the conventional mode until my son lost it on one of his outings. Take a look at KEH, they usually have several in different focal lengths. If you never do fill flash outdoors they probably aren't much use.

thanks for all the responses.

@Steve - glad you liked the M645. Can't wait to try my new one when it comes.

@ncp - Ok, thanks. That is one more vote for the non leaf lens.

Great forum we have here!

Matt (or anybody else who knows!),

Would you mind explaining in a little more detail how the leaf shutter lenses work manually speaking? Information seems strangely thin on the ground.

I have a 645 Super and WG401 grip, but nobody seems to know for certain if this combo will offer the automatic shutter cocking functions with N/L lenses or not, so I'm trying to get a handle on just what I can do if I leave the winder out of the equation.

Leigh:

The difficulty with your question arises from the fact that the WG401 grip is newer than the Super.

If I understand correctly, it is the WG401 grip and the associated Grip Connecter PL401 that permit automatic shutter cocking functions with the most recent N/L lenses. What I don't know, is whether the Super bodies are fully compatible with and make full use of the features of the WG401 grip.

Matt

Matt,

Yeah, that's my understanding, so I've given up for now getting answer about whether the Super, WG401 and an N/L lens will work together without buying a leaf shutter lens and experimenting myself.

What I was trying to ask, and being a bit unclear I guess, is how does an L/S or an N/L lens really work without a power winder?

Do you just have to manually cock the leaf shutter and set the focal plane shutter to 1/8 or slower and it'll all work?

Is the leaf shutter's speed set on the lens?

Most importantly, assuming you're willing to work things manually, is the only thing you need the actual leaf shutter lens? No extra bits and bobs like special double shutter release cables?

Leigh:

You basically have this right.

Here is how I use my 70mm L/S lens:

1) set 1/8 or slower on the camera body shutter;
2) set the shutter speed on the lens;
3) wind the camera (the viewfinder will be dark);
4) manually cock the shutter on the lens (you can look through the viewfinder now );
5) use the shutter release on the camera to take your picture;
6) repeat.

If you want to use the focal plane shutter in the camera instead, you set the shutter on the lens accordingly (to "F" on my lens) and it will work just like a non-L/S lens.

If you are using flash, you need to use the pc terminal on the lens, not the one on the camera.

Hope this helps.

Matt

PS there is also a "A" and "M" setting on the lens - the "A" permits open aperture metering, wile "M" serves as a depth of field preview.

Thanks much, Matt, especially for that extra note about the PC sync port on the lens. I remember reading something about that, but I'd entirely forgotten. I thought the picture I had my mind was logical, but it's really helpful to have somebody who actually has the gear say, "yes, this is how that's going to work."

I might well end up with a 70mm L/S as well since it's the most affordable leaf shutter lens I've found used so far. While I'm generally an available light shooter, there's occasions where I want lighting setups and just realized recently that 1/60th sync was not going to cut it for some of things I have in mind for my Super!