Mamiya M645 film advance problem??

[stradibarrius]

My M645 with a120 insert takens fantastic photos but I have a problem. The film doesn't advance correctly...Sometimes I get 11 shots, sometimes 13 and occasionally I will get 15 shots. I am not getting double exposures just missing frames. Sometimes I will get half frames.
The film counter advances each time I advance the film. I advance the film in a slow even motion until I here the shutter cock and the advance mechanism stops. I do not force anything and the mechanism seems to work smoothly.

Any ideas?

 

[RobertV]

Yes, your 120 insert needs a CLA. At this moment you have to compare prices for CLA and a "new" (second hand) insert. Depending on the "load" done with the insert you will be happy for another years.

 

[tkamiya]

If you aren't getting double images, I wonder if the problem is really in film advance mechanism.

If the shutter is opening properly, the image would have gone somewhere, such as on top of other images or with really wide gaps. Where are those problem frames? At the end of the roll or in between frames? Can you post a pic of your negatives?

 

[stradibarrius]

If it is the lens I can just change my lens and shoot a roll and see if all 15 images appear and that should tell me if it is the lens or the insert???

 

[tkamiya]

I don't think it's the lens. There's nothing in the lens that will cause partial image. I'm thinking it could be the shutter not fully opening or doing so in sync. Can you take a pic of your negative or describe it here?

 

[stradibarrius]

Isn't the shutter in the lens?
Here is a negative shot yesterday.
This guy is down in the mouth.

 

[tkamiya]

You are talking about Mamiya M645, right? Almost all lens for this model except for a few (you can tell because there is a flash PC connector on lens) do NOT have a shutter in the lens. Shutter is IN the camera body.

What's wrong with this frame? It looks perfect to me.

If you are shooting with 645 format, you should get 15 frames total. You said you are getting less. Can you explain where the loss is happening? Spacing too wide? Missing at the end? You also said 1/2 frame. Where's this happening? In the middle?

I'm guessing you cut your negs into 4 frames or so each. Can you just scan the whole strip and post it?

 

[stradibarrius]

Clear base. Like I started shooting in the middle of the roll. The first frame may be a partial sometimes. I can't show you a blank frame. The frame either looks good or is missing. The partials evelook god what there is of them.

 

[tkamiya]

Here's what I think:

If you have absolutely nothing for a while and in middle of the film, you start to get images, then there are no excessively uneven spacing or double exposures....

That tells me the film advance mechanism is working. Having no image and being entirely clear tells me those early frames got no exposure. That means either the mirror did not go up or the shutter did not open. Again, unless you have certain lens that has the flash connector on the lens barrel, your shutter is in the camera body.

I have a M645 super. I can take the lens off, back off, then set the single/multi control to MULTI position and simply fire away without any film in it. Can you do the same with yours and see if mirror is going up and shutter is opening?

 

[stradibarrius]

Thanks, I'll give that a try and see where I'm at.

 

[tkamiya]

By the way, I feel your pain... I had to open up my M645 Super for the second time in few months and the latest failure happened right at a photo shoot (in portrait class). I was able to repair it at home but I had to revert to my backup camera for the shoot.

 

[MattKing]

stradibarrius:

Are you getting 15 negatives stretched across the entire film, with some of them blank, or are you getting shots crowded toward one end of the film?

Do you have a contact sheet that shows how the images (or lack of same) are spaced across the film?

From some of what you say, it sounds like your shutter isn't always firing. If that happens, you get blank frames.

Can you remind us which model of M645 you have?

Matt

 

[stradibarrius]

I don't have a contact sheet but here is a scan of the beginning of the roll and the end. The first partial image s actually what should have been the 3rd shot. You can see what should have been shot 4 and 5. This is the beginning of the roll. the you see what the counter and I thought were shots 14 and 15 and the start of the blank end of the roll. the shots between 5 and 14 were all spaced correctly and present. I was testing the meter in the camera and as you can see it is off but has nothing to do with the film advance.

The behavior is almost like the winding mechanism and the insert do not mesh up till the third frame and then it works fine until it gets to what it thinks is frame 15 the releases to be taken up.

 

[MattKing]

I take it that you have only one insert - am I correct? If not, try it with a different insert.

I asked which model camera you have, because I can't remember if your camera uses interchangeable backs. If your camera does take interchangeable backs, the problem could also be with the connection between the body and the back.

The problem could also be with the back door - either to the back (if your camera does take the interchangeable backs) or to the camera body (if it doesn't). It could be resulting from the interconnection between the latch and the counter re-set.

When you load a new film, are you monitoring the film counter, to ensure it is advancing as expected?

Matt

 

[stradibarrius]

I do not have interchangeable backs. The counter resets and advances each time I advance the film. As I said before it seems to take the 3 advances before the film actually moves?
I also tested the shutter/mirror. Opened the back and place the lever on muilt and the shutter curtain opens and the mirror moves out of the way. I checked this repeatedly and no failure. I am leaning to the insert but it is such a simple arrangement. It is very clean and looks new?

 

[Q.G.]

As still also an owner of Mamiya 645 gear, you should have kept that Hasselblad...

Sounds like your camera needs to be serviced, or even repaired.
But try to find and test another insert first. They shouldn't be too expensive (should be cheap, actually), and it never hurts to have two.

 

[stradibarrius]

The Hassey was great but I needed the money so...
I love this M645. This is the only issue I have with it. The Meter is off about 1.5 stops it seems.
I will just get another insert and try that.

 

[Ektagraphic]

Take it to a good camera place for a CLA.

 

[stradibarrius]

Yesterday I got 14 shots on the roll?? There was normal blank space at the beginning befroe the 1st frame and the 14 good frames with black at the end of the roll? This is crazy...

 

[daleeman]

MY CLA at KEH of my 1000S

I have a 1000S that started doing the same thing. I did/do have other 120 inserts and they gave me no difference. Worth the cost to prove it by buying one for $ 20.00 if it fixes the problem YEA, if not, the body will need CLA. This developed in my camera and I sent it with a roll of negs to KEH and about $ 135 later had it back and it is fine. Now you can buy a used body for about that, but I thought I would inhearit someone elses problems and still face a CLAs some day.

So pick who ever you choose to do your work, but if a different insert does not do it, off to the shop.

One nice thing is mine now works really well in -10 degrees weather since the new lube is in it. It would not do such with 30+ year old muck in the internals.

Your right. Great format.

Lee

 

[lem3]

Sounds exactly like a problem I had with a 1000s. Note that when you remove the insert the spring-loaded frame counter in the body is supposed to return to "S", for Start, I suppose. With time, that mechanism gets gunged up (technical term, there) and only returns to some random frame number between S and 5 or 6, in my case.

One short-term, very unapproved workaround is to manually roll the gear mechanism inside the chamber when you remove an insert so the counter is all the way back to S. Otherwise a CLA is recommended.

 

[suzyj]

My M645 had this problem when I bought it.

The fix was to remove the winder and right-side cover, disassemble the gear train around the frame counter, clean and lightly grease it and reassemble.

It's a reasonably involved job - if you're not skilled at camera repair you should probably give it to someone who is. If you're keen to do it yourself, I can provide further pointers.

 

[stradibarrius]

My frame counter spritely returns to "S" when I remove the film insert. When I re-insert a freshly loaded insert I have to crank it over until "1" appears then the advance will stop until to shoot frame "1". It will then allow me to advance to frame "2" etc. Today a got 141/2 frames on the roll. i/2 the first frame was missing. I have a 1000s on it's way with a second 120 insert. When it gets here I will be able to test the cameras and inserts. Thanks for the help.

 

[Ektagraphic]

Be sure to let us know how you make out with the 1000S

 

[Rolleijoe]

My M645 with a120 insert takens fantastic photos but I have a problem. The film doesn't advance correctly...Sometimes I get 11 shots, sometimes 13 and occasionally I will get 15 shots. I am not getting double exposures just missing frames. Sometimes I will get half frames.
The film counter advances each time I advance the film. I advance the film in a slow even motion until I here the shutter cock and the advance mechanism stops. I do not force anything and the mechanism seems to work smoothly.

Any ideas?

I had the same problem about a year after using 1 particular back. Also, I had a number of inserts (and after asking your same question) tried those. No matter which insert, there was the same issue.

A new back solved everything. All you need is a new back, and the problem is cured.