Mamiya C330f Question....

unharmed · Jun 14, 2005

Hey Guys,
Finally got a chance to play with the C330 I picked up recently and have a question about winding the film on. I'm starting to suspect I may have a problem with the winding mechanism but need to clarify exactly how it's *supposed* to work.

When I load a film, close the back and wind it on then the crank stops with the frame indicator on "1" as per the manual. However, after releasing the shutter and then winding again, the lever doesn't 'lock' and the frame dial doesn't advance even though the film is definitely rolling through the body (I wasted a roll of Provia checking this ).

So...do I have a problem or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks in advance,

Ben

Digidurst · Jun 14, 2005

There is a little dial on the right (if you're holding the camera with it's back to you & lens forward) where you can specify single or multi exposure. Is yours set on single?

unharmed · Jun 14, 2005

Thanks, Digi.

Yes I've checked that. The first time the crank failed to lock was mid-roll and I *think* I may have bumped the single/multi dial that time but I've subsequently tested it again and verified it was set to 'single' with the same problem. On the re-test, the crank locked on the first frame but not subsequently at all.

Thanks again,

Ben

Digidurst said:
There is a little dial on the right (if you're holding the camera with it's back to you & lens forward) where you can specify single or multi exposure. Is yours set on single?

grahamp · Jun 14, 2005

Do you have a cable release attached, or could you be pressing the chin release at all? The camera has an odd 'feature' where the film can be wound off early by holding down the shutter and winding.

My best guess is that the film counter mechanism is slipping. Since it gets to frame 1 and stops, the frame reset catch (inside the light trap at the open end of the back) seems to be operating. The film advance works using the sprung toothed wheel in the film takeup chamber. It is essential that the camera back is fully closed for this to work. You should use your thumbs on both corners of the back to secure tha latches. If that doesn't fix it (and assuming your film is being wound up), there may be a fault.

The Single/Multi control only affects the double exposure prevention mechanism that stops the shutter button being pressed twice or more per frame. You have to manually re-cock the shutter. It does not affect the film transport. This is different from manual 35mm practice.

unharmed · Jun 14, 2005

Thanks, grahamp.

That's a good point about accidentally holding down a shutter release - I don't *think* I was but I was concentrating more on winding the crank etc. This is my first camera of this type so I certainly wouldn't rule it out.
It's dark here now but I'll have another shot tomorrow. I certainly hope it's just me being ham-fisted.

Thank you both for your help,

Ben

grahamp said:
Do you have a cable release attached, or could you be pressing the chin release at all? The camera has an odd 'feature' where the film can be wound off early by holding down the shutter and winding.

My best guess is that the film counter mechanism is slipping. Since it gets to frame 1 and stops, the frame reset catch (inside the light trap at the open end of the back) seems to be operating. The film advance works using the sprung toothed wheel in the film takeup chamber. It is essential that the camera back is fully closed for this to work. You should use your thumbs on both corners of the back to secure tha latches. If that doesn't fix it (and assuming your film is being wound up), there may be a fault.

The Single/Multi control only affects the double exposure prevention mechanism that stops the shutter button being pressed twice or more per frame. You have to manually re-cock the shutter. It does not affect the film transport. This is different from manual 35mm practice.

unharmed · Jun 15, 2005

Well now I'm even more confused

I just ran a roll of Provia and a roll of T-Max through the camera and the results were....well....inconclusive. I was particularly careful with the operation of the camera and made sure I wasn't accidentally holding/depressing either of the shutter-releases apart from actually taking the shot.
The T-Max seemed to go through perfectly. I lost count of the shots I had taken *smacks self in forehead* but I'm pretty sure I got to the end of the roll with the crank locking after every shot correctly.
The Provia, however, started to skip (ie. not lock the crank after winding on) after the 4th frame. I continued shooting and winding on by just moving the crank to the correct position until about frame 10 when it started locking again!
Is there an easier way to test this operation other than running film through it? Could I run an already spoiled roll through the camera backwards to confirm it or should I just take it back and be done with it?

Thanks in advance,

Ben

Carol Flutot · Jun 15, 2005

Your camera may need to be CLA, for when they have been sitting around
for a long while the lubrications can gunk up and cause the levers inside not to
function properly, causing the skipping you mentioned with the film. I have seen
this problem many times and after I CLA them the problem is solved.
You can email me if you would like any further information!

Carol
flutotscamera@earthlink.net

unharmed · Jun 15, 2005

Thanks very much, Carol.

I suspect you may have a point. The dealer I got it from was selling it on consignment so it's very likely they did zero work on the camera beforehand :-/

I am going to take it back this weekend and see what they will do.

Thank you all for your help

Ben

Carol Flutot said:
Your camera may need to be CLA, for when they have been sitting around
for a long while the lubrications can gunk up and cause the levers inside not to
function properly, causing the skipping you mentioned with the film. I have seen
this problem many times and after I CLA them the problem is solved.
You can email me if you would like any further information!

Carol
flutotscamera@earthlink.net

grahamp · Jun 15, 2005

You can rewind a sacrificial film, or just use some backing paper.

I think it is a poorly latched back, but the gearing may be slipping internally.

unharmed · Jun 15, 2005

Hey grahamp,

I made sure to latch the back as firmly as I could with thumbs on both corners. There was still some play in it once closed though. Should there be any or should it be absolutely solid?

Thanks,

Ben

grahamp said:
You can rewind a sacrificial film, or just use some backing paper.

I think it is a poorly latched back, but the gearing may be slipping internally.

Tammyk · Jun 15, 2005

I have a C330. I have also experience periodic problems that sound similar to what you have described.

The only thing I can suggest is to really be observant about the top receiving spool and how it's seated with the winding knob. It must be seated perfectly. I'm not sure about having play in the back either. I doubt that I've experienced that.

In a completely mechanical camera like this, it's difficult when things are sporadic.
Good luck.

grahamp · Jun 15, 2005

The back does 'bounce' against the latch springs and the light trap foam. As long as the top right corner of the back is down, it should be fine. It is beginning to sound like the film advance mechanism is not latching. This is probably dirt or a misplaced spring.

unharmed · Jun 17, 2005

I sat down last night and went through the whole shooting procedure from start to finish but with no film loaded (I didn't have any around I was willing to sacrifice) and it worked perfectly a dozen times in a row.
Might simply be a process of me learning the quirks of an older, fully mechanical camera in order to avoid the problem.

Tammy: I'm glad I'm not alone I will take careful note of how I place the top spool next session. I am going out shooting with it this Sunday so will know more after that.

Thanks to all of you for your help. It would have been a far more difficult troubleshooting process without your insight.

Ben

dr bob · Jun 17, 2005

If the mechanism works OK without film, there might be a problem when film is installed due to the very slight increase in thickness. The back area where the little frame counting tang is depressed when the back is closed may have become worn just sufficiently to allow a problem (???)

Did I not read where you ran a whole roll of film through accidentally? Why not use this as you dummy roll and do some experimenting. Actually b&w roll film is so cheap, I would advise you purchase one (or two) just for learning. You could also use the film to learn tank loading if you are thinking of home processing.

unharmed · Jun 17, 2005

dr bob said:
If the mechanism works OK without film, there might be a problem when film is installed due to the very slight increase in thickness. The back area where the little frame counting tang is depressed when the back is closed may have become worn just sufficiently to allow a problem (???)

Absolutely a possibility and a fairly likely scenario considering the evidence. When I examined the little tang you mentioned, it did look 'fairly' worn but, of course, I don't have any other one handy to compare it to :/

dr bob said:
Did I not read where you ran a whole roll of film through accidentally? Why not use this as you dummy roll and do some experimenting. Actually b&w roll film is so cheap, I would advise you purchase one (or two) just for learning. You could also use the film to learn tank loading if you are thinking of home processing.

Yes you did read that Unfortunately those rolls became the subject of a misunderstanding between my wife and myself which resulted in them going out with the rubbish.
I'm trying to fit troubleshooting this camera in around my day job which is proving irksome. I will definitely pick up some more cheap B&W to test with.
Telling my wife that I'm buying *more* "stuff" to develop at home may well result in another one of those 'misunderstandings'

Thanks,

Ben

unharmed · Jun 21, 2005

Update: I just got two rolls of Provia back from the lab and am extremely happy with the results despite the boring subject matter (mainly carparks at work ) and the embarassingly small number of actual images on one roll (<cough>three<cough>). There's definitely nothing wrong with the actual image taking part of the camera's operation which is nice to know. I also picked up some more cheap B&W to re-test the film winder.

Ben

eumenius · Sep 17, 2005

Winder problem

Hello Ben,

I think the reason for your problems with C330f and film transport can be a faulty chin release button... the Mamiya people introduced a "skip-stop" system allowing to use 6 exposure rolls (there were some, maybe some early colur film). You press the chin release button, and turn the handle - and the whole roll goes through without stops! The only way to have this effect is to use a sticking release cable that blocks something in chin release system, or just to press the release button during winding. This is a well-know weak point of all Mamiya TLRs (including mine, of course)

Cheers,
Zhenya

unharmed said:
There's definitely nothing wrong with the actual image taking part of the camera's operation which is nice to know. I also picked up some more cheap B&W to re-test the film winder.
Ben

thebanana · Sep 17, 2005

I had exactly the same problem with my C330. It's now in for a CLA. I'll let you know if that made any difference. By the way, what's a chin release button?

grahamp · Sep 17, 2005

The C330/f/s models have two shutter releases. One on the right side of the lens board frame, and the other on the front bottom of the camera. This part sticks forward of the lens board to accomodate the focus gears, and looks like a protruding chin with the camera in profile.

eumenius · Sep 18, 2005

Yes, the chin release button is a button on the lower side, where you can attach the release cable. The levers connecting it to the whole mechanism are designed not-too-well, so it's possible to bend them (when someone presses hard on the button while it's locked by camera or the shutter was not loaded). That causes the problem, and usually it's easy to find and fix. And the sticky release cable causes the same even on healthy bodies of C330, otherwise perfect machines.

Good luck,
Zhenya

thebanana said:
I had exactly the same problem with my C330. It's now in for a CLA. I'll let you know if that made any difference. By the way, what's a chin release button?

Mamiya C330f Question....

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