Mamiya c220 Advance Issue

[BenF]

Hi, this is my first post and I've done a search for this issue and haven't seemed to find anything, so I thought id ask the group..

I just bought a Mamiya c220 and in my first two rolls of film have had an issue where the advance lever gets stuck on the 6th shot (halfway through 120). The only thing that I have been able to do to fix it is hold down the shutter release and wind the advance lever about half way around, which then fixes the problem and I can advance as normal for the rest of the film. The advance is smooth and normal when it works and there is no sign of it being sticky.

I've tried a few things like switching from single to multi and depressing the shutter release harder to see if it releases but nothing works except the above method.

The other interesting thing is that when it is stuck I can cock and release the shutter repeatedly even when it is on single.. I don't know why..

If anyone has any insight into this I'd love to hear about it, my current work around will be sure to get tiresome pretty quickly but at least I'm not ruining too much film.

Thanks!!

 

[dabsond]

Following this as well. I have had that problem with my C220 on one occasion. It has never repeated it. Anyone know of a reliable place to get these cameras serviced in the US?

 

[Kirks518]

Is it always the 6th shot? Could be a bad gear tooth inside.

 

[BenF]

Is it always the 6th shot? Could be a bad gear tooth inside.

If it was a bad gear tooth, would it behave the same if I ran it through to the 6th shot without any film?

 

[grahamp]

The Mamiya C cameras (C3 and later) have film advance prevention in the camera body tied to the shutter release. Multi just allows the camera body shutter release to be used many times without film advance. The C220 is prone to slip between the two settings - the slider does not always stay put.

I suspect that the film advance detection is failing. When the film is developed, are the first 6 frames correctly spaced (ought to be about 3-5mm separation), and are the remainder of the frames spaced right? The film travel is measured by a sprung gear inside the take-up spool chamber. The toothed wheel rotates in contact with the backing paper, and as the spool plus film thickens it depresses the gear.

If the film is not being tightly wound on the take-up spool, or if the back is not fully latched on both corners, this film transport recording does not work correctly. There is a counter reset tab that needs to be fully depressed by the back.

If the camera always stops on frame 6, and you have to use the short-wind-off to disengage the mechanism, it may be that you have a fault. The film counter is zero when there is no film present and the back has been opened? Once the film has been inserted and advanced so that the backing arrow aligns with the index dots on the rails, the back is closed, and 2-3 turns should bring you to frame 1 and the advance will lock.

The other thing to check is that the pressure plate and the body control are both set to 120 (unless you are using 220 film). Unlike the C330, the C220 has no interlock for these settings.

 

[BenF]

Hi Graham,

Thanks so much for your detail response. A couple of things based on what you have said. I developed one of the rolls of film, and there was a consistent inconsistency to the spacing between the images. That is, for two shots the spacing was the same, then three shots it was the same, etc. The spacing wasn't 3-5mm, more like 5-10mm, and one of my images was right at the very end of the reel. I suspect this is because of the larger spacing, and I'm sure the short-wind-off I did to disengage the problem didn't help either..

I did run an empty spool through a full 12 shots, and it stuck again at shot 6.

The pressure plate and body are both set to 120, and when the film is loaded it aligns with the index dots and the advance locks at frame 1 with 2-3 turns, as you said.

Would this all point towards the film advance detection failing? And if so, can these problems be self repaired?

Any insights would be great, thanks so much!

 

[Kirks518]

Pm'd

 

[grahamp]

I usually run backing paper for camera tests - it gives some tension - but an empty spool should be fine. It sounds like damaged gears in the advance mechanism to me. The frame spacing should not vary much and I cannot think of a reason for frame 6 to be special. The unexposed leader on 120 is usually around 20-30mm. If frame 1 is much beyond that then the mechanism is not tracking.You could try one more test with the Single/Multi control taped in Single just in case it is slipping. Oh, and the lens change baffle is down in the taking position? The gear wheel in the take-up area is nicely sprung?

To get inside you will have to ease off the right side covering and various knobs and remove the right side plate. Ass the frame counter and interlock stuff is in there. I have not done it myself. There are some Mamiya TLR service manuals around.

 

[Kirks518]

Graham, I sent him the service manuals, so that should help.

As far as removing the right side (the side with the winder), it isn't crazy difficult. You don't need to fully remove the leather, you can just lift the edges where the screws are covered, which makes it a little easier to close it back up when done. I didn't take any photos when I repaired mine after a drop, as I had the exploded views and the manual, but the repair was relatively simple in my case. For what we think may be the issue for the OP, he may need a parts camera to get good gears from if that is indeed the issue.

When I had mine open, I tried to fiddle with the single/multi exp switch, but there was nothing I could do, as it was just too darn loose. I got the camera with a small bit of tape on the switch because of it, and ended up keeping the tape as the only easy remedy.

 

[benjiboy]

Your camera is probably more than thirty years old and has never had any maintenance it needs to be repaired and C.L.A'd by a professional if you need it to be reliable.

 

[Ian Grant]

Ben's right, the gearing on the C series Mamiya cameras wears out and often needs replacement parts, I had to have my C3 serviced when something similar happened.

Ian

 

[dabsond]

Your camera is probably more than thirty years old and has never had any maintenance it needs to be repaired and C.L.A'd by a professional if you need it to be reliable.

Any info on who does work on these cameras?

 

[Luckless]

Does anyone have detailed specifications on the gears? (And are most of the C220 gears the same ones used for the C330 series? Or were there any changes between the C330's f and s versions?)

I have a C330f on order, and access to precision gear cutting, and having specs on hand would go a long way to making any repairs easier to do.

 

[BenF]

UPDATE:

I worked up the courage to open the camera myself. I wanted to see if I could spot what was going on in the insides when the advance lever stuck at the sixth shot. I figured that if I couldn't see what was happening, I would just close it up again and live with the problem, as I had a fairly reliable work around. I saw no point in getting it professionally repaired, as I'm sure it would cost more than the camera itself.

So when I opened it up and fired off the shots, it turns out I could see the problem. It had to do with the two layered gear beneath the plastic counter. At the sixth shot, one of the levers connected to the shutter mechanism wasn't moving into the same spot on those counter gears as it would with all the other shots. I'm assuming this was telling the camera that no photo had been taken, which is why it wasn't winding on and was letting me take more shots. Anyway, I thought that maybe one of the cogs was damaged, so I took them out and inspected them, and they seemed perfectly normal. Perplexed, I put them back together again and…. the problem went away. I now get all my 12 shots with no stuck advance lever. Don't you love fixing things when you have no idea how you did it? Haha.. I'm thinking that maybe they were mis-aligned, but I really have no idea.

As far as the gears wearing out, all of the gears looked to be in great condition except for the one attached to the advance winder itself. I imagine that may need replacement at some point as some of the grooves were chipped. But at the moment it works just fine and doesn't skip.

Thanks to everyone who offered their advice and insights!

 

[Kirks518]

That kind of fix happens often. What you didn't notice though, was that as soon as you opened it up, the Gremlin jumped out and ran away.

Congrats, and go enjoy the camera... It's a great system!

 

[Bill Howard]

This is a year later, but I am hoping someone can help me. I am also having film advance issues and have the service manual, but I am having an issue removing the film advance knob, particularly the gear once the plate has been removed, so that I can remove the knob. Can someone help me and show me with pics or video how to remove it?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Luckless]

Photos of what you've gotten done so far, (MS Paint and red arrows/circles/labels are great by the way) may help people offer better advice and be more confident that they understand exactly what you have.

Good luck with getting your camera working again.

 

[Bill Howard]

The only thing I need to know is how to remove the film advance knob. Everything else I can handle.

 

[Shoot]

Graham, I sent him the service manuals, so that should help.

Hi Kirks: hope you're still active, this thread is a bit old - any chance you have / could send me a link to a manual that covers the C2 ?

I just bought a C2 and the film wind lock is malfunctioning. It won't keep track of where I am in the roll. It will lock the winding knob in random places, or not at all, but almost never in the correct place. I work around it by just unlocking it when it jams in the wrong place, and watching the indicator on the knob and stopping when I am in the right place on the roll. But it would be nice to know how to at least look at the inside, lubricate the gears and maybe it will start working correctly again if not worn out.

thanks in advance if you can help

Shoot

 

[Shoot]

Once the film has been inserted and advanced so that the backing arrow aligns with the index dots on the rails, the back is closed, and 2-3 turns should bring you to frame 1 and the advance will lock.

this is the case with the Mamiyaflex C2 I just bought. However, once I advance past the first exposure, the counter will randomly stop on any number at all, or no number, so I just press the filmwind lock release as needed, and watch the counter as i wind, stop at the next number after 2 rotations and everything is spaced correctly.

but i would like it to work correctly.

If the operation of my camera is similar to Alex's writeup, I intend to use Alex Carabello's service he described here:

Mamiya C220 won't stop at numbers

Hi... I was given a Mamiya C220 in apparently very good shape, got it today. Mamiya-Sekor 80mm 2.8 looks super clean and works fine. Speeds and diaphragm seem to operate correctly. I don't have any film to test yet but when in "Multi" I can fire normally. Now, Problem: I noticed that when in...

www.photrio.com

Does that sound reasonable ?

 

[amspeidel01]

For what it’s worth, I had the same issue with the film not stopping at each frame after an exposure. So I dove in and removed the right panel and cleaned the mechanics with alcohol and now all good. I can give the details if needed.